Whats the max fish combo a new reefer can try by skipping fallow and QT

[brandon429]

This thread will be linked to hundreds of new tank builds. I want a quick and concise link for tankers to read as they meet the choice crossroads of no fish disease protocols vs the best we have to offer in 2020 (fallow and quarantine, with aseptic transfer practice between tanks)

We can see by taking time to read this forum, a few pages out, that skipping fallow and QT in all its wondrous detail constitutes nearly every help request.

*that could be as simple as skipping fallow for one little astrea snail...whatever he brings in is what he brings in. We either keep up fallow separation preps by design and a new reefing "lifestyle" or we falter the entire process with one snail, two years after having ran it successfully.


That being said, Ive helped several friends set up a nano with new rocks and a couple clowns. That seems to be a decent starting point where decent tank control, clean water, nice fish sourcing, good feeding, can keep fish going without disease wipeouts though we did always discuss disease can still get in by skipping the right go, and should these fish die then the only prudent means is to re fallow and apply updated science.

do fish sages in here agree, is it ok to have new tankers who really might not want to learn a new approach to keeping fish just start and remain with a couple clowns and at most maybe a goby? can that close the % loss we can see from scanning pages where mixed species all skip fallow preps?

 

[brandon429]

New reefkeepers reading here will need to keep in mind that rarely do reefers start at level 1 and remain there, for years. the tendency is to grow and compound so that what's in your tank matches your growing abilities and learning. Your first inclination in this process is to add more fish, but how we add fish is crucial as marine fishkeeping is not like freshwater, we assume these fish show up diseased in our tanks and that matches the # of work threads you can see pending here by reading a few pages.

most of them either didnt attempt fallow, or they broke its delicate chain of command by septic materials handling and transfer. You'll have to dive into this world of study and read if you ever see yourself having more than the extreme basic fish bioloading.

In this thread we will find out the % likelihood that starting with a couple simple clowns and skipping fallow preps remains a high chance of success if fish diversification is kept low.


*every new coral, shrimp, snail etc brings in new disease by cross contamination vectoring. Everytime we add a hardscape item into these reefs, we either break or continue a chain of command involving fallow and quarantine + clean handling preps.

 

[brandon429]

Bump

Team

whats the best combination of fish someone can use without quarantine...the best types or the best way to approach a new setup with fish, that doesn’t use qt and fallow? Wanting some feedback pls, even today we have cycle completed tanks about to add fish

 

[Zionas]

In terms of species, the obvious would be to stick to the very disease resistant species and avoid sensitive ones. Assuming your LFS is reputable,

Some to consider would be:

1. Captive Bred Clownfish (do not, do not, do not buy wild caught. I have NO idea why people still buy wild caught Clowns when their reputation for hardiness comes from the captive bred specimens. If all we got were wild caught Clowns all Clowns would be rated Moderate-Difficult. Clowns have a thick slime coat.)

2. Cardinalfish except the Bangaii (not a fan of Bangaiis, they’re less tolerant of conspecifics and live shorter lives than say, the Pajama, possible due to the stress exerted during their egg brooding process compared to the same process for other species)


3. Triggerfish (for a reef tank go with a Blue Throat, Crosshatch, or Sargassum)


4. Marine Betta (almost bulletproof once established, fights off disease like a champ unless severely weakened, best to make sure it’s weaned off live foods at the LFS before buying.)


5. Basslets (Grammas- Royal and Blackcap, Swissguard, Assessor spp.)



6. Gobies (IMO Cryptocentrus is the best genus)



7. Hawkfish (if you want peaceful go Flame or Longnose)



8. Some Tangs- Your best bet is with a Zebrasoma (Yellow, Purple, Pacific Sailfin, Desjardini Sailfin, Black Longnose, Gem, Scopas) maybe a Cthenochaetus too (Yellow Eye Kole, Squaretail, White Tail, Tomini, Blue Eye Kole) Avoid Acanthurus and Paracanthurus (Blue Hippo).



9. Rabbitfish (Smallest is One Spot Fox Face. All Rabbitfish are hardy, other options include the one without the dot- Foxface Lo, but IMO it looks weird without the dot, Magnificent, Bicolor etc. they have a very thick slime coat)


10. Wrasses and Hogfish (Thick slime coat like the Rabbitfish.)



11. Some Angelfish- If you can go really big, Maculosus, Passer, Koran seem to be the easiest. If you can go really rare and really expensive, Clarion. If you want completely reef safe, Genicanthus spp. aren’t too hard as long as they’re collected and shipped well. Xanthurus Cream And Red Sea Cream Angels (a lot more rare) are also options.

Not sure about the Scribbled but heard it’s the hardiest of its genus (Chaetodonplus) that’s otherwise full of difficult fish. If you want to go small, in the genus Centropyge Coral Beauty, Flame, Atlantic Cherub, African Flameback are the best ones. Maybe the Rusty Angel too. Joculators are reportedly hardy too but watch your wallet.



12. Butterflies- I was in communication with WetWebMedia (RIP Bob) today, and the guy who answered me said that a beginner with at least 6 months of experience should only stick to the genus Heniochus.



13. If you’re up for it, a dwarf species of Lionfish, even a Snowflake Eel. However, I assume all you want is a typical community tank.


14. Everybody’s favorite, the most peaceful fish in the sea, the damsels. . From what I’ve heard, if you really want them stick to certain species from the genus Chrysiptera (Yellow Tail Blue, Azure, Talbot’s, Rolland’s, Blue Sapphire / Springer’s). Avoid Chromis. Ticking disease time bombs.


15. Dottybacks (Orchid / Fridmani is the most “community friendly”)


16. Miscellaneous fish- If you can find them, there’s a species of Sea Chub called Stripeys. Microcanthus strigaster. Where I’m from they can be collected in shallow water down by the beach (Southern China).


17. Blennies


Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[DeniseAndy]

Captive bred fish only. If they come directly from supplier or are held in captive bred only facilities or tanks. Especially for smaller tanks, why get anything else.

Clowns, neon/other gobies, yellow tang, assessors, dottybacks, etc. So many to chose from.

 

[brandon429]

Thats a massive list of fish available to input as no quarantine, into a no fallow system.


surely that list is too big??? all those fish are as tough as clowns??

if so= neat I did not know that. My reefs are too small to keep fish/never got to

all of those fish present for disease issues here on a daily basis it seems...for ich/crypto

that list seems expansive for fish that can skip QT and fallow?

I thank you both for your input, we truly want new cyclers (where this thread will be linked to) to know which fish need careful preps in order to avoid having to post here for disease loss, and which ones dont (based on stats, a couple ocellaris are usually resistant per most nano reefs)

 

[Zionas]

I am one of those unfortunate reefers who currently has no space for a separate QT system. Therefore, my approach is to have a fairly disease resistant “build” when it comes to fish.


Here are my thoughts, feel free to comment. My tank will be 183 gallons, 6 foot by 2.3 foot by 1.8 foot. I will be listing why I’ve decided to go with what I’ve chosen. These are my absolute confirmed fish:

2 Ocellaris Clownfish (normal or black and white variety)- As mentioned above, they will be captive bred and Clowns have a very thick slime coat relative to other fish. My LFS keeps all their captive bred fish separate from their wild caught fish. The hardiness of Clowns comes almost solely from the fact that they’re so widely bred in captivity.

I don’t think any reef tank would be complete without a pair of Clowns. Ocellaris, as everyone knows, are the most popular and among the more peaceful species. Tank crash survivors.


3 Pajama Cardinalfish- I like these way over Bangaiis. From the YT videos I’ve seen, and from reviews by fellow reefers, these were among the few fish that survived when they had a tank crash. Every reefer I’ve communicated with also says they live longer than the Bangaii Cardinals, capable of living over a decade while 5-6 years would be pushing it for the Bangaiis.


1 Royal Gramma- Small, adds a nice dash of color.


1 Marine Betta- My fellow reefers who’ve kept this fish, and what I’ve read elsewhere all indicate that this one is an MBT when it comes to survivability. Its survivability is like an Abrams tank with the Chobham armor and the Israeli Trophy system. One guy said his was with an Anthias that developed uronema and it tanked it like it was nothing. Also heard that this fish can survive ich (ich is almost like a stranger to it, IMO has to be severely weakened to even develop a few spots) and velvet outbreaks. On top of that, absolute stunner.


1 One Spot Fox Face- Again, another fish with a heavy slime coat. Great algae eater and very cute too. Peaceful. I chose this species over any other species because of price and because it’s the smallest. The Foxface Lo looks like it’s missing a piece of its life without that black dot or blotch.


1 Flame Hawkfish- Cute as heck, great color, great personality, and I’ve heard of these guys surviving velvet outbreaks.


1 Yellow Tang- Among the hardiest of all Tangs and as @4FordFamily said genus Zebrasoma responds well to ich management if needed. Another great algae eater that will provide utility.


1 Yellow Candy Hogfish- Like all wrasses, have a very thick slime coat that’s harder to penetrate. Great color, might be useful for eating bugs.


1 Blue Throat Trigger (male)- The males are the ones with very nice color. I have considered a pair but WWM said for my tank size just one male would be better. Triggers have armor like scales though it might not look that way. Blue Throat also belongs to the most reef safe and least aggressive genus of Triggers.



Unconfirmed species / genuses:

Genicanthus Angels- I’d love a Lamarck’s or a pair of a smaller species. Most of my research seems to indicate they’re not particularly susceptible to disease.

Black and White Bannerfish- WWM says for my tank size just a single one would be best. The guy who answered my questions says for a beginner, keep away from all butterflies expect this genus.


Yellow Eye Kole Tang- This genus is often rated second in hardiness after the Zebrasoma. Great algae eaters too.


Scribbled Angel- WWM and some Taiwanese reefers I’ve talked to say this is an easy one as long as it’s eating prepared foods.



If I’m stocking in anticipation of a tank crash, all the fish in my “confirmed list” are ones I won’t be without. In other words, one side that are able to ride with me to hell and back.


A thick slime coat, well protected with scales, even larger size, or just sheer mystery of nature’s design are all positive contributors to a species’ resilience.



If I had a sophisticated set of quarantine procedures the list of fish I can keep would expand at least two fold. Unfortunately at this point in time having a separate QT system is not possible with me, so what’s appropriate for me would be far fewer than that for a seasoned reefer.


Of course, if most or all species were captive bred (which I really hope will be the case someday) and handled / treated well, we’d have a lot less to worry about.

 

[brandon429]

Thank you very much. There are tons of new cyclers in this exact same boat and thats a nice running option for them to know. Excellent.

**there are always posters on forums who dont QT/Fallow and still have strong inherent natural disease prevention artistry. Investigating that angle is how most people would like to start. QT and Fallow probably has the higher control statistics, buts its a rigid/inflexible asceptic materials handling approach, and one violation can undo years of work. it has downsides as well. nice to have a reinforced biological system in place to curb risks from messy procedure.

 

[AmaleeC]

I’ve never quarantined any of my fish, and eveb after losing 1 clown died to ich & 1 to brooklynella - I never bothered to do a fallow period. Call it what you may (first word that comes to mind is risky!), but I didn’t have any issues with ich or brook after the first time around && my other fish did just fine. If I recall correctly, it was my clownfish, a neon blue goby and a lawnmower blenny.

btw I wouldn’t recommend tangs as a “no qt” beginner fish. I’ve read many articles on how they catch Ich quickly due to stress. I’ve also read about other fish getting it from them and passing away. I could be wrong, but this is just from what I’ve seen..

 

[brandon429]

What is bringing this into play for us is the ability to fish-in cycle.

On a separate thread in the chemistry forum, we're uncovering the fact that fish-in cycling isn't actually burning or harming fish. The reason they're acting normal, tank to tank, post to post, and wait 3 mos to die of a disease is because bac in a bottle is able to control ammonia out of the gate.

we can use any of those fish above for a cycle, and as much as we preach reasons to not, I can show you twenty current threads that did and the fish are fine.


When we advise people why they shouldnt fish-in cycle, it needs to be accurate. We've been claiming ammonia burning and that actually isn't the risk...in 2020 its possible to produce bottle bac strains that simply transfer well tank to tank/bottle to bottle. Disease control is the new gateway to cycling, not ammonia control.

once new cyclers get ahold of seneye ammonia meters, they'll see we've been misinforming them this whole time about ammonia burning...its important to use the correct rule when recommending allowed start dates to new cyclers.

We cannot forfeit fish-in instant cycling from the hobby, the label on bottle bac that accurately controls ammonia tells new cyclers of the option.

We now need a list of fish able to skip disease protocol preps, and those will be the legit fish to use with bottle bac additions. Telling everyone to wait 30 days in cycling isnt going to cut it. We must set some acknowledgements in order to catch up with the times.

**all aquarists can verify ammonia control before adding fish, to rule out dead bottle bac**

 

[Zionas]

As an extension, I believe certain species should be imported in minimum quantities (with “safeguards” from the LFS when it comes to buyers), or not imported at all.

IMO species that fall into this category would be:

-Achilles Tang (import minimally, vet potential buyers)

-Powder Blue Tang (import minimally, vet potential buyers)

-All Cleaner Wrasses (do not import unless captive bred)

-Orange Spotted Filefish (do not import / import minimally and vet buyers)

-Moorish Idol (do not import)

-Most butterflyfish (corallivores should be left in the ocean, the harder species buyers should be vetted)

-Regal Angel (only import from the Red Sea)

-Batfish (better left in the ocean, or import minimally and carefully vet buyers)

-Garden Eels

-Ribbon Eels

-Sharks and Rays (if I had my own LFS I would be questioning any potential buyer heavily before deciding to sell them a shark or ray, they will have to be pre-ordered, I will be requesting photos of their system / where they intend to keep it)

And many others.



If I ran an LFS and a customer came in eyeing that Achilles Tang (should I choose to import them), they’d be in for a grilling regarding their history in the hobby. I’d even do it if they eyed a Blue Hippo. If they tell me they’ve lost 5 Yellow Tangs to whatever reason, nope, not selling the fish. If they tell me they’ve lost a couple of “Nemos”, nope, not selling Dory.

 

[brandon429]

a bump for new readers linked here, we advocate prepping your tank before adding groups of fish. Its a very complex method that many skip, and the fish pay the price, we just buy more in replacement.


If anyone has better recommendations for preparing new tankers for fish groups other than fallow and quarantine + aseptic handling technique and prep for new additions, post that method pls

 

[BeltedCoyote]

Excellent thread! Well done everyone.