When is a tank considered mature?

[zheka757]

I wouldn’t say this, because I bought 1 head of a frogspawn about a month ago, and it is in the middle of splitting its head into 2! And my Acan has plenty of new buds sticking out of it. Not to mention my pipe organ is out of control. Corals seem to be fine, but a 3 month old tank with dry rock and no pods definitely doesn’t seem mature lol

Try to put a acro in it! And watch it die down in relatively new tank. Why? Tank not stable, stable=mature.
I would say this is as abriviated as possible. PART of personal opinion of what mature tank is!

 

[Minifoot77]

My main tank is going to be 3 the week of Thanksgiving and I believe it is more like a toddler always needy and throws tantrums if it doesn't get what it wants

 

[leepink23]

Try to put a acro in it! And watch it die down in relatively new tank. Why? Tank not stable, stable=mature.
I would say this is as abriviated as possible. PART of personal opinion of what mature tank is!

I started my new tank with dry rock in March, in May I added acros. I have 32 acros that are growing with great color. But to be fair I have grown acros for years in other tanks, I also added biomedia from Topshelf acro tanks, so I can imagine that helped a lot.

 

[zheka757]

I started my new tank with dry rock in March, in May I added acros. I have 32 acros that are growing with great color. But to be fair I have grown acros for years in other tanks, I also added biomedia from Topshelf acro tanks, so I can imagine that helped a lot.

knowledge and experience helps a lot to. new reefer will dose this today, that tomorrow, fighting dynos while already have frags that are struggling. then they see one reefer does this method, so they try to recreate. later turns out disappointment, so they go on to next reefer see what they do, and try to follow that.... list goes on and on,
In your case you probably "seeing that done that" approach. you know what it takes for acro to stay alive. you know that your tank needed a good biomedia to kick start your tank,

in a way i guess maturity of the tank also grows with your knowledge.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Maturity is subjective but most would agree a year marks maturity. However, I'd say that if you use all live rock from the ocean, your tank is mature FAR sooner.

Why rock from the ocean? Why heavy rock?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

When a tank is mature? It will depend on the manager. A maturing tank has a maturing manager.
First the tank is cycled. Then the tank may be conditioned. A conditioning tank matures. The system may expand and grow, supporting a maturing display. If being matured is the end goal it all ends there.

 

[LovinlifeinGuam]

Why rock from the ocean? Why heavy rock?

The weight doesn't make a difference. Its just that there's probably far more tha 10x the biodiversity (life) on 1 inch of the rock than in a dry start aquarium after 6 months. (Likely underestimating here)

 

[Belgian Anthias]

The weight doesn't make a difference. Its just that there's probably far more tha 10x the biodiversity (life) on 1 inch of the rock than in a dry start aquarium after 6 months. (Likely underestimating here)

The weight makes a big difference because you pay by weight for something you think you may need but weights nothing.

If that diversity must come from the ocean, how much of the original diversity will still be in place after being harvested, stacked in the open air, hosed down and stripped of most growth. Then packed and transported in open air. All the time in contact with local competitors. If by air transport without pressurization. How most cells having lived at a constant pressure below surface will survive, from those who have survived the voyage to the surface and first contact with direct sunlight? After arrival how the survivors will compete with active local clades wanting the same thing? What will be left of the original diversity? Not much.

The myth of "live rock"

if you want diversity from the ocean go and collect 5 grams of local growth ( algae) and sand from the reef, do it in a 1.5 l bottle, close it below the water surface and cover it from sunlight, keep cool ( room temp) in the dark and have it home within 24h in your cabin luggage. Then maybe 1% of the original diversity survived,feeding on the other 99% But why?

Every organism added to the tank does contain its own holobiont full of essential diversity. Real live rock is entered with each piece of coral, with each grain of sand.

 

[LovinlifeinGuam]

The weight makes a big difference because you pay by weight for something you think you may need but weights nothing.

If that diversity must come from the ocean, how much of the original diversity will still be in place after being harvested, stacked in the open air, hosed down and stripped of most growth. Then packed and transported in open air. All the time in contact with local competitors. If by air transport without pressurization. How most cells having lived at a constant pressure below surface will survive, from those who have survived the voyage to the surface and first contact with direct sunlight? After arrival how the survivors will compete with active local clades wanting the same thing? What will be left of the original diversity? Not much.

The myth of "live rock"

if you want diversity from the ocean go and collect 5 grams of local growth ( algae) and sand from the reef, do it in a 1.5 l bottle, close it below the water surface and cover it from sunlight, keep cool ( room temp) in the dark and have it home within 24h in your cabin luggage. Then maybe 1% of the original diversity survived,feeding on the other 99% But why?

Every organism added to the tank does contain its own holobiont full of essential diversity. Real live rock is entered with each piece of coral, with each grain of sand.

Ok, I see why we disagree now. The live ocean rock I get hasn't been through any of that because of my location. For you, you're likely right...for me, it's not the same process at all though.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

For me a tank is mature when it doesn't need you and it doesn't have any issues.

Algae issues go away in a mature tank. You will have algae growing on the viewing panels but the rocks aren't all brown or green. And covered in purple coraline is not a sign of health. It's just a sign of another algae that is thriving - which isn't a sign of maturity or stability.

The other sign a tank is mature is when it doesn't need you to watch it and tend to it. In the event there is trouble with a loved one and you need to walk out the door - How is your tank going to fare and for how long?

A mature reef tank has enough life within it to feed most of its inhabitants. With the exception on anthias, most reef community fish can find enough to eat in a mature healthy reef that you don't need to add food. Before I started keeping Anthias I used to feed my reef tanks - 125g and 400g less times a year then there are months in a year.

I always have 'overstocked' tanks - Pipefish, Mandarins, tangs, angels, blennies damsels, pseudos all thriving - and spawning regularly without any food being added to the tank regularly.

Now how long can you walk away from the tank for. If you tank is going to evaporate out in a few days. Then that's an issue. But assuming things like topoff is taken care of. How long can you leave your tank for before bad things happen.

When people are doing 10 different kinds of bandaid products to try to control parameters a tank is neither mature or stable. A mature tank can sustain healthy life on it own. Now can dosing a mature tank make it better? Maybe. But it's not a necessity to maintain life.

A few years back I had to walk out the door to go take care of my Dad. I was fortunately only 2 hours away. I had to come home once when the 20lb CO2 ran out for the Calcium Reactor. Other than that 10 weeks with no intervention and we had no losses. And when I got home I ordered a pair of 50lb tanks to increase that 10 week window.

Dave B

Dave, you do know algae is abundant on ocean reef rocks, right?

There are a few live ocean reef cams out there, you will be amazed by how much algae those tangs are finding all day long.

I am not sure a home reef ever becomes mature in the ways people are describing. More water volume creates the "stability" that I see people attributing to maturity.

Much of stability in smaller tanks comes from corals no longer being vulnerable frags and from the fact that the owner is no longer moving rocks and adjusting lighting schedules 3 times a week anymore.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

The weight doesn't make a difference. Its just that there's probably far more tha 10x the biodiversity (life) on 1 inch of the rock than in a dry start aquarium after 6 months. (Likely underestimating here)

Based on what science?

I see these kinds of statements all of the time, but I really question how well we, as hobbyist, understand the biodiversity in our tanks. People say "back in the day, we had REAL live rock, and no ugly stage" and this is 100% revisionist history. One of the best selling products at the LFS I worked at for 12 years were cyano killers, and that's a decade ago, when most rock was fresh off the plane from Fiji or Tonga.

A poorly balanced aquarium can get cyano even 3 years in. The hobbyist's skill at husbandry is what seems to be the real indicator of maturity, that's what seems to experience the most growth in every case.

 

[LovinlifeinGuam]

Dave, you do know algae is abundant on ocean reef rocks, right?

There are a few live ocean reef cams out there, you will be amazed by how much algae those tangs are finding all day long.

I am not sure a home reef ever becomes mature in the ways people are describing. More water volume creates the "stability" that I see people attributing to maturity.

Much of stability in smaller tanks comes from corals no longer being vulnerable frags and from the fact that the owner is no longer moving rocks and adjusting lighting schedules 3 times a week anymore.

Are you generalizing the entire ocean here? You do know there are areas where algae is certainly not abundant as well. Some areas are far overgrown with algae and considered to be unhealthy. Yes, excessive algal growth can indicate that something is wrong, naturally growing or otherwise.

Based on what science?

I see these kinds of statements all of the time, but I really question how well we, as hobbyist, understand the biodiversity in our tanks. People say "back in the day, we had REAL live rock, and no ugly stage" and this is 100% revisionist history. One of the best selling products at the LFS I worked at for 12 years were cyano killers, and that's a decade ago, when most rock was fresh off the plane from Fiji or Tonga.

A poorly balanced aquarium can get cyano even 3 years in. The hobbyist's skill at husbandry is what seems to be the real indicator of maturity, that's what seems to experience the most growth in every case.

If you reread my post, I was sure to use the word "probably" indicating it's a conclusion I've drawn myself. I do believe that there are more than several bacterial strains within a square inch anywhere in the ocean. I did compare it to a system started with dry rock after 6 months but if you're counting every bacterial strain within each coral holobiont and present on every fish added that's completely different than what I was saying. If you dump raw sewage into a dry start tank on day 1 will you have a ton of biodiversity? Of course! That's not the same though.

 

[leepink23]

knowledge and experience helps a lot to. new reefer will dose this today, that tomorrow, fighting dynos while already have frags that are struggling. then they see one reefer does this method, so they try to recreate. later turns out disappointment, so they go on to next reefer see what they do, and try to follow that.... list goes on and on,
In your case you probably "seeing that done that" approach. you know what it takes for acro to stay alive. you know that your tank needed a good biomedia to kick start your tank,

in a way i guess maturity of the tank also grows with your knowledge.

I completely agree with you! The experience goes along way, I definitely don’t recommend a brand new reefer to try acros fast.

 

[Bohemian Waxwing]

Are you generalizing the entire ocean here? You do know there are areas where algae is certainly not abundant as well. Some areas are far overgrown with algae and considered to be unhealthy. Yes, excessive algal growth can indicate that something is wrong, naturally growing or otherwise.

If you reread my post, I was sure to use the word "probably" indicating it's a conclusion I've drawn myself. I do believe that there are more than several bacterial strains within a square inch anywhere in the ocean. I did compare it to a system started with dry rock after 6 months but if you're counting every bacterial strain within each coral holobiont and present on every fish added that's completely different than what I was saying. If you dump raw sewage into a dry start tank on day 1 will you have a ton of biodiversity? Of course! That's not the same though.

Yes, I am generalizing the whole ocean - algae is abundant in every reef ecosystem. Having a little algae on your rockwork is not a sign that your tank is immature.

I think you would be shocked by the diversity of bacteria that enters a tank through snails, fish, frag plugs, etc. I did a study in college on lamprey's in the St. Mary's river (Canada) and it's pretty wild what shows up under the scope within even a single hour after introducing a fish to an otherwise "sterile" tank. It was always hard for me to grasp how quickly bacteria populations grew (and shrank).

Tank mature rock* is better, it's been exposed to more and has likely found something closer to equilibrium in tank conditions, but I simply don't agree that ocean live rock is better because of the mythical biodiversity people say it adds. Tanks with ocean live rock suffer from similar problems to tanks that dry rock suffer from. Hobbyist experience, not constantly messing with lighting/flow/nutrient levels/stocking, and water volume provide more of the signals of maturity that people are listing here than rock age imo.

edit: for the record, I've seen your other posts and I think you are a very talented reefkeeper. I think that success is because of you, not ocean rock or biodiversity.

The weight makes a big difference because you pay by weight for something you think you may need but weights nothing.

If that diversity must come from the ocean, how much of the original diversity will still be in place after being harvested, stacked in the open air, hosed down and stripped of most growth. Then packed and transported in open air. All the time in contact with local competitors. If by air transport without pressurization. How most cells having lived at a constant pressure below surface will survive, from those who have survived the voyage to the surface and first contact with direct sunlight? After arrival how the survivors will compete with active local clades wanting the same thing? What will be left of the original diversity? Not much.

The myth of "live rock"

if you want diversity from the ocean go and collect 5 grams of local growth ( algae) and sand from the reef, do it in a 1.5 l bottle, close it below the water surface and cover it from sunlight, keep cool ( room temp) in the dark and have it home within 24h in your cabin luggage. Then maybe 1% of the original diversity survived,feeding on the other 99% But why?

Every organism added to the tank does contain its own holobiont full of essential diversity. Real live rock is entered with each piece of coral, with each grain of sand.

You said it much better than I did, I just missed your post. Thanks!

 

[Troylee]

I don’t feel there’s a real true answer to this question… I considered my tank mature on day one of putting water in it myself because I had some rock that was from another tank that was about 8 months old… those rocks had Sps encrusted all over them and sat in the air drying out for 7 hours and they all survived and are thriving lol.. to put it into perspective I have about 350 gallons of brand new water, about 60-70 pounds of live rock with fresh sand and another 100 pounds of dry rock I added and the tank took off day 1… Sps thrive and fancy nems grow well in it etc etc.. took about 2 months and corraline covered all the new rock and I never looked back.. my tank is currently 5 months old and I can keep or house anything I want! Even got some wild acros that are doing amazing!

 

[LovinlifeinGuam]

Yes, I am generalizing the whole ocean - algae is abundant in every reef ecosystem. Having a little algae on your rockwork is not a sign that your tank is immature.

I think you would be shocked by the diversity of bacteria that enters a tank through snails, fish, frag plugs, etc. I did a study in college on lamprey's in the St. Mary's river (Canada) and it's pretty wild what shows up under the scope within even a single hour after introducing a fish to an otherwise "sterile" tank. It was always hard for me to grasp how quickly bacteria populations grew (and shrank).

Tank mature rock* is better, it's been exposed to more and has likely found something closer to equilibrium in tank conditions, but I simply don't agree that ocean live rock is better because of the mythical biodiversity people say it adds. Tanks with ocean live rock suffer from similar problems to tanks that dry rock suffer from. Hobbyist experience, not constantly messing with lighting/flow/nutrient levels/stocking, and water volume provide more of the signals of maturity that people are listing here than rock age imo.

edit: for the record, I've seen your other posts and I think you are a very talented reefkeeper. I think that success is because of you, not ocean rock or biodiversity.



You said it much better than I did, I just missed your post. Thanks!

I appreciate the compliment. I don't believe anything you simply add to a tank will guarantee success. This is only my preference (so of course I support it) but I am well aware that others achieve success by different methods. I've just found this method to work best for the way I like to do things. This is a very commonly debated topic but honestly, it never seems to lead to people finding common ground and in the long run, as I believe you mentioned (and I agree), successful reef-keeping is far more dependent upon the reefer than the rock.

 

[Paul B]

I considered mine matured 2 years ago when it was 50. :beaming-face-with-smiling-eyes: