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JoaoMP

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Hello fellow reefers!

I started cycling my tank (120G) 4 days ago with Microbe-Lift Special Blend and I am using a shrimp as a source of ammonia.

It is the first time I am cycling with a bottled bacteria and I am suprised with the results. I am reading nitrites and nitrates but no ammonia (test results below)

Day 1: Ammonia 0, nitrites 0.03
Day 3: Ammonia 0
Day 4: Ammonia 0, nitrites 0.05, nitrates 2-3

My interpretations is that the bacteria are processing ammonia faster than the shrimp is releasing it.
1- Is this a fair conclusion?
2- If so what do you recommend, (1) adding another shrimp to boost ammonia so that i can determine how much is being consumed , (2) nothing just be patient and keep the shrimp in there for a few more days.

Thanks
 

Jekyl

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Patience. Everything in this hobby is patience. No harm can come of waiting. However jumping the gun can have consequences. Did you use any live rock? Or is it all brand new?
 

Jekyl

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Always best to have patience. I didn't do the shrimp method so I don't know how much ammonia is produced. I would think that you should be fine. If eager you can always pick up a rock covered in coraline from your LFS and add your first first fish along with it.
 
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JoaoMP

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Trend continues. No ammonia spike and production of nitrates up to 7-10 mg/ml.

From the nitrates levels I assume a sufficient ammount of ammonia has been and continues to be released and bacteria are doing their job.

Does this mean it is cycled? @brandon429 as the expert on these topics what do you say?

Thanks ;)

cycle.jpg
 

brandon429

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my opinion is this: microbe lift is among the slower cycling bac we could select. in the current arrangement, varied ammonia vs specific dosing, and slow bottle bac, simply wait out the time from a common cycling chart, remove shrimp, change water, and you're cycled. can't fail. what the interim testing says wont matter.

#2 option much more 2021:

take the current setup and add biospira or fritz, known to be the two fastest cycling bac. take everything from above and apply it to Friday this week, cycled
specifically adding known 48 hour cycling bac to this mix will have the cycle reading in 48 hours without fail just the same. remove the shrimp, change out the rot water for new, and what the testing said the whole time will not matter unless you buy a bottle of dead bacteria which Ive never seen occur in our cycle posts but is a persistent rumor in reefing circles, the dreaded bottle of water that could not carry water bac.

:)

in both options, we did not list to rely on the test kits for the allowed start date being ran off wastewater, we did the opposite in fact.
 

vetteguy53081

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As much as I hate to ask;
Are you by chance using api test for ammonia ?
 
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JoaoMP

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my opinion is this: microbe lift is among the slower cycling bac we could select. in the current arrangement, varied ammonia vs specific dosing, and slow bottle bac, simply wait out the time from a common cycling chart, remove shrimp, change water, and you're cycled. can't fail. what the interim testing says wont matter.

#2 option much more 2021:

take the current setup and add biospira or fritz, known to be the two fastest cycling bac. take everything from above and apply it to Friday this week, cycled
specifically adding known 48 hour cycling bac to this mix will have the cycle reading in 48 hours without fail just the same. remove the shrimp, change out the rot water for new, and what the testing said the whole time will not matter unless you buy a bottle of dead bacteria which Ive never seen occur in our cycle posts but is a persistent rumor in reefing circles, the dreaded bottle of water that could not carry water bac.

:)

in both options, we did not list to rely on the test kits for the allowed start date being ran off wastewater, we did the opposite in fact.
Got it, thanks for the quick reply!
 

vetteguy53081

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brandon429

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Pls let us know outcome! After the clean start, post back what's living that's the real referee in cycling calls/ timing calls

A rotting shrimp is unlike any style of reefing we do, so test kits report all kinds of mixed results. Going off known timing and clean starts is better, that matches our reef presentation much better, to evaluate the clean water vs the old after waiting to a know timeframe, either bottle bac label dates or a cycling chart.

Testing doesn't have to factor much at all but since everyone likes a little confirmation, some nirate at the end is a fine conversion proof even if its all really just nitrite spiking, still conversion. I have never seen a cycle ran off timing fail to complete on time not once ever. Only living animals are what we see in updates (and red sea and api that disagrees lol accepted)

a third and most common option is simply waiting the required number of weeks for the shrimp to degrade and fully process into zero ammonia and zero nitrite and some nitrate and if any three fail to line up, wait longer. that way isn't very 2021 though. reef conventions could never align 400 reefs for a timely start if cycling worked exclusively that way.
 
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JoaoMP

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@brandon429

Hello!

As requested here is an update for you knowledge database

Tank is now 15 days old and the first algae (brown spots) are starting to appear. I will post a picture tomorrow to ilustrate this topic.

Next saturday (day 18) I am starting 10% weekly TPAs + kalkwasser dosing, I will turn the lights and skimmer on and will add a minimal CUC to consome the algae 3 or 4 days later (day 22) if water parameters are right

Tests have been as follows:

Ps - after reading other topics and from my experience I concluded that a 0.25 reading on salifert test can be considered 0 ammonia (even tanks that have been running for months have readings of 0.25)

cicle2.jpg


Cheers
 

Jekyl

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Why start dosing already? There isn't anything to consume what is already there.
 

brandon429

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Wonderful


and quite accurate findings and research insofar as that specifically lines up with our visual cycling threads (new spots of anything pigmented affix on the layering above filtration bacteria and by known order of ops do not precede basic ammonia control ability)


you have met the ammonia control timing line from a common cycling chart, another independent timing reference and a confirming # of days you saw some action here too. I’m confident if you change the water it’s had enough feed and starting buildup to run meaning the bioslicks remain behind after the water change. The engine is sputtering and can move :)

put some starting life in it, begin
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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That your ammonia never hit 2 ppm doesnt matter much in new cycling rules, old cycling rules valued it #1

your nitrate climb is more significant proofing. Your bottle bac isn’t dead and your room contaminations aren’t devoid of nitrifying bacteria is the specific takeaway.

ammonia didn’t have to reach a certain level, any level your test shows is fine for a feeding duration wait time where the slicks lay down. Then the big water change removes any dissolved or suspended waste for a clean start, and the mixed scum layers remain, the initial colonizers of reef tank surface area that will never starve or uncycle or undo

a little too much ammonia won’t stop the slicks.

a little too little won’t stop the slicks, other feed gets in too we don’t account for. A final water change evens the variables all out
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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@brandon429

Hello!

As requested here is an update for you knowledge database

Tank is now 15 days old and the first algae (brown spots) are starting to appear. I will post a picture tomorrow to ilustrate this topic.

Next saturday (day 18) I am starting 10% weekly TPAs + kalkwasser dosing, I will turn the lights and skimmer on and will add a minimal CUC to consome the algae 3 or 4 days later (day 22) if water parameters are right

Tests have been as follows:

Ps - after reading other topics and from my experience I concluded that a 0.25 reading on salifert test can be considered 0 ammonia (even tanks that have been running for months have readings of 0.25)

cicle2.jpg


Cheers

FWIW, there may be little to no nitrate present if there is really 0.1 to 0.2 nitrite. With some kits, that would give a false 10-20 ppm nitrate.
 

brandon429

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very helpful to see the scaling on that, excellent. even that distant connection linked with the visual cues are appearing in amazing consistency for cycle start timing

this part is fun to see in the wild west of current tank cycling discoveries

Dan's recent work with nitrite presence even in established tanks is a neat running baseline it seems. each of these conversions has a running rate, it will be amazing to know if its consistent or highly varied tank to tank, as the measures evolve.
 
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JoaoMP

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FWIW, there may be little to no nitrate present if there is really 0.1 to 0.2 nitrite. With some kits, that would give a false 10-20 ppm nitrate.
Hmm this is interesting thank you for sharing @Randy Holmes-Farley. In a couple of days I will test again for nitrites and nitrates and will report back. Btw, I am using tropic marin’s test for nitrites and nitrates. Any specific feedback on these test kits?
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Hmm this is interesting thank you for sharing @Randy Holmes-Farley. In a couple of days I will test again for nitrites and nitrates and will report back. Btw, I am using tropic marin’s test for nitrites and nitrates. Any specific feedback on these test kits?
They said here that there is a 50x or 100x multiplier, depending on the version of the kit, so 0.2 ppm nitrite reads as 10 or 20 ppm nitrate.


"Just as an example: We (Tropic Marin) manufacture and sell two Nitrite-Nitrate-Test-Kits. The nitrate : nitrite factor is 100 in the ultra low range Pro version and 50 in the higher range Basic version. I am sure it is similar in other nitrate test kits too since all use the same basic chemistry in reducing some of the nitrate to nitrite and in fact measuring nitrite."
 
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