Which pan world for my mixing station

ToneReef · Dec 9, 2019

Hey all, I’m looking for a pump that will push and pull my water out my 2 tanks about 38’ away from my mixing station in the garage. Tried a Jevao 10000 because of the high head pressure and gph, however, it pushes out not too bad doesn’t pull very well. Looking at options from the pan world Line and within my budget of course. So, for such a long horizontal way to go, what’s more important, head pressure or GPH...??? Looking at 100px and 100px-x, I would appreciate if anyone has similar set up and can recommend which pump your using for water changes without those dang buckets. Thanks

ca1ore · Dec 9, 2019

You'd want the pressure rated model, so PX. I'd guess the 50Px would suffice.

DCR · Dec 9, 2019

I would probably opt for the 100-PX or even the 50-PX pressure rated pump, depending on the size of your piping. What diameter is the transfer line? Pulling through 38 ft of piping is going to be tricky. You have to keep it submerged (below liquid levels) so that air pockets are not created in it. I think you may be having cavitation issues because there is too much pressure drop in the suction line when pulling. You may be better off having a separate pump at the tank and the display.

ToneReef · Dec 9, 2019

Thanks for the response, yeah, but i do. have a separate pump, i mean. thw pump im shopping for is just to do my water changes from mixing station. Im using as transfer a 100% rubber hose which is 3/4 id. ive seen a few reefers using this method, and it seemed very convenient

DCR said:
I would probably opt for the 100-PX or even the 50-PX pressure rated pump, depending on the size of your piping. What diameter is the transfer line? Pulling through 38 ft of piping is going to be tricky. You have to keep it submerged (below liquid levels) so that air pockets are not created in it. I think you may be having cavitation issues because there is too much pressure drop in the suction line when pulling. You may be better off having a separate pump at the tank and the display.

Thanks for the response, yeah, but i do. have a separate pump, i mean. thw pump im shopping for is just to do my water changes from mixing station. Im using as transfer a 100% rubber hose which is 3/4 id.

ToneReef · Dec 9, 2019

ive seen a few reefers using this method and it seemed very convenient. i saw 100px has more head pressure but less gph than the px-x and wasnt sure which helps more for that distance, head pressure or gph??

DCR · Dec 9, 2019

You definitely want a PX rather than a PX-X with only 3/4". I would probably just go with the 50 PX rather than the 100 PX. I doubt you will gain much flow from 100-PX with the piping restricted like that. It will just take a little longer to perform the transfer. I probably misread your original post. It sounded like you were attempting to be able to flow in either direction so as to both fill and empty the tank with a pump at the mixing station.

ToneReef · Dec 9, 2019

Awsome, thanks a lot. Never even thought i could do the 50px due to its much lower pressure. . why do you think the 50?, if you don't mind me asking, im just curious to how exactly that works.. Lol, im new to all this and im the type to want to know all the ins and outs of pretty much everything that has to do with what ever im trying. i mean, un less im misunderstandimg, your saying that the 50px would work Better than the 100 for my specific set up??

DCR · Dec 9, 2019

The 100-PX will certainly give you more flow than the 50-PX, I am just saying that I don't know that it is worth the additional cost.

Estimating how much flow you will actually get is tedious and not really worth the effort, but if you are interested here goes:

The pressure or head loss of a section of piping is a function of the ID and the flow rate through it. Attached is a chart for schedule 40 PVC piping.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-pipes-friction-loss-d_802.html

Your tubing ID is not the same as 3/4" SCH 40 PVC, but as an example for 3/4" piping at 420 gph, the head loss is 10.5 ft for every 100 ft of length. The trick is estimating the equivalent length. It is not just the 38 ft of straight run. Fittings, bends etc and sudden contractions and expansions will add to it significantly. It is a tedious calculation to capture all the losses. There are some on-line calculators but they often lack all of the components. In my industry, I often just double the straight run as a starting point. It should be conservative in your case using hose. Using this approximation, you have 2 x 38 or 76 feet of equivalent length. That would mean you would have 10.5 ft times 76/100 or about 7.6 ft of head loss. Any elevation change would be added to that. Lets say it is 4 ft. Then your total head requirement at 420 gph would be 11.6 ft

If you wanted 420 gph, you then would want to look at a pump that can deliver 420 gph at 11.6 ft. The amount of flow a pump can deliver is a function of the system head. As the head or back-pressure increases the flow will decrease. A lot of aquarium pump manufacturers only list the max flow (at zero head) and the max head (at zero flow). The better pump manufacturers will provide a curve that shows the delivered head as a function of the flow rate. If there is no curve provided you can estimate it assuming a linear (straight line) head curve between those two points.

Pan World provides curves on their web site. Use the 60 hz curves for North America

http://www.panworldpump.com/products_03.php?cs=3&ss=15

Looking at the head curve for the 50 PX, it will only deliver about 7 ft at 420 gph (26 liters per min), so it should deliver a little less than 420 gph. The 100 PX would deliver 420 gph at about 13 ft of head, so it will flow more than 420 gph.

You have to do a trial and error solution to match your system head losses with the pump. If the flow is increased to 600 gph the head loss through the piping is now 20 ft per 100 ft, so for 76 feet you would have about 15 feet plus the 4 ft of elevation gain or 19 ft. At 600 gph, the 100 PX would only be able to deliver about 9 ft of head, so you would not get anywhere near 600 gph. Probably something like 500 gph if you ran all the calculations, so you might gain 100 gph by going with the 100 PX over the 50 PX

The point of all this is that the system head loss really snowballs to very high levels as you push the flow rate. When this happens, you really need larger pipe. That is why I am saying that for a 3/4" pipe system, the 50 PX is probably the best choice, but there is no reason you could not use the 100 PX if you wanted.

The PX-X series pump curves are on the site as well. The analysis method is the same. They have higher flow capabilities but only at low head. At high head requirements, the PX pumps will actually produce more flow.

alton · Dec 10, 2019

For energy savings go with a 50PX versus a 100PX. It could save you $40 a year or $400 for the life of the pump.

ToneReef · Dec 10, 2019

DCR said:
The 100-PX will certainly give you more flow than the 50-PX, I am just saying that I don't know that it is worth the additional cost.

Estimating how much flow you will actually get is tedious and not really worth the effort, but if you are interested here goes:

The pressure or head loss of a section of piping is a function of the ID and the flow rate through it. Attached is a chart for schedule 40 PVC piping.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-pipes-friction-loss-d_802.html

Your tubing ID is not the same as 3/4" SCH 40 PVC, but as an example for 3/4" piping at 420 gph, the head loss is 10.5 ft for every 100 ft of length. The trick is estimating the equivalent length. It is not just the 38 ft of straight run. Fittings, bends etc and sudden contractions and expansions will add to it significantly. It is a tedious calculation to capture all the losses. There are some on-line calculators but they often lack all of the components. In my industry, I often just double the straight run as a starting point. It should be conservative in your case using hose. Using this approximation, you have 2 x 38 or 76 feet of equivalent length. That would mean you would have 10.5 ft times 76/100 or about 7.6 ft of head loss. Any elevation change would be added to that. Lets say it is 4 ft. Then your total head requirement at 420 gph would be 11.6 ft

If you wanted 420 gph, you then would want to look at a pump that can deliver 420 gph at 11.6 ft. The amount of flow a pump can deliver is a function of the system head. As the head or back-pressure increases the flow will decrease. A lot of aquarium pump manufacturers only list the max flow (at zero head) and the max head (at zero flow). The better pump manufacturers will provide a curve that shows the delivered head as a function of the flow rate. If there is no curve provided you can estimate it assuming a linear (straight line) head curve between those two points.

Pan World provides curves on their web site. Use the 60 hz curves for North America

http://www.panworldpump.com/products_03.php?cs=3&ss=15

Looking at the head curve for the 50 PX, it will only deliver about 7 ft at 420 gph (26 liters per min), so it should deliver a little less than 420 gph. The 100 PX would deliver 420 gph at about 13 ft of head, so it will flow more than 420 gph.

You have to do a trial and error solution to match your system head losses with the pump. If the flow is increased to 600 gph the head loss through the piping is now 20 ft per 100 ft, so for 76 feet you would have about 15 feet plus the 4 ft of elevation gain or 19 ft. At 600 gph, the 100 PX would only be able to deliver about 9 ft of head, so you would not get anywhere near 600 gph. Probably something like 500 gph if you ran all the calculations, so you might gain 100 gph by going with the 100 PX over the 50 PX

The point of all this is that the system head loss really snowballs to very high levels as you push the flow rate. When this happens, you really need larger pipe. That is why I am saying that for a 3/4" pipe system, the 50 PX is probably the best choice, but there is no reason you could not use the 100 PX if you wanted.

The PX-X series pump curves are on the site as well. The analysis method is the same. They have higher flow capabilities but only at low head. At high head requirements, the PX pumps will actually produce more flow.

I gotta say, I’ve read and watched a number of videos on this subject and finally I understand. Thanks so much for taking the time to give me this very informative lesson... thank you. I’m definitely going with the 50px cause really looking at curves and the probable pressure loss the 100 might not be worth extra cash for maybe a few extra gph, I wonder if this applies when pulling water out of the main display also?

Silent · Dec 10, 2019

If it is for a pump only operated once in a while you can find cheap used pool pumps on CL for $50-100 that will have no problem pushing or pulling water. Not the kind of pump you want to run all the time due to power consumption but for water transfer, perfectly priced powerhouse.

wrasse man · Dec 10, 2019

I run a 40px, it mixes and pushes about a 50 foot basically level run to fill my tank without issue. I don't know about pulling with it.

mike550 · Dec 10, 2019

DCR said:
The 100-PX will certainly give you more flow than the 50-PX, I am just saying that I don't know that it is worth the additional cost.

Estimating how much flow you will actually get is tedious and not really worth the effort, but if you are interested here goes:

The pressure or head loss of a section of piping is a function of the ID and the flow rate through it. Attached is a chart for schedule 40 PVC piping.

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/pvc-pipes-friction-loss-d_802.html

Your tubing ID is not the same as 3/4" SCH 40 PVC, but as an example for 3/4" piping at 420 gph, the head loss is 10.5 ft for every 100 ft of length. The trick is estimating the equivalent length. It is not just the 38 ft of straight run. Fittings, bends etc and sudden contractions and expansions will add to it significantly. It is a tedious calculation to capture all the losses. There are some on-line calculators but they often lack all of the components. In my industry, I often just double the straight run as a starting point. It should be conservative in your case using hose. Using this approximation, you have 2 x 38 or 76 feet of equivalent length. That would mean you would have 10.5 ft times 76/100 or about 7.6 ft of head loss. Any elevation change would be added to that. Lets say it is 4 ft. Then your total head requirement at 420 gph would be 11.6 ft

If you wanted 420 gph, you then would want to look at a pump that can deliver 420 gph at 11.6 ft. The amount of flow a pump can deliver is a function of the system head. As the head or back-pressure increases the flow will decrease. A lot of aquarium pump manufacturers only list the max flow (at zero head) and the max head (at zero flow). The better pump manufacturers will provide a curve that shows the delivered head as a function of the flow rate. If there is no curve provided you can estimate it assuming a linear (straight line) head curve between those two points.

Pan World provides curves on their web site. Use the 60 hz curves for North America

http://www.panworldpump.com/products_03.php?cs=3&ss=15

Looking at the head curve for the 50 PX, it will only deliver about 7 ft at 420 gph (26 liters per min), so it should deliver a little less than 420 gph. The 100 PX would deliver 420 gph at about 13 ft of head, so it will flow more than 420 gph.

You have to do a trial and error solution to match your system head losses with the pump. If the flow is increased to 600 gph the head loss through the piping is now 20 ft per 100 ft, so for 76 feet you would have about 15 feet plus the 4 ft of elevation gain or 19 ft. At 600 gph, the 100 PX would only be able to deliver about 9 ft of head, so you would not get anywhere near 600 gph. Probably something like 500 gph if you ran all the calculations, so you might gain 100 gph by going with the 100 PX over the 50 PX

The point of all this is that the system head loss really snowballs to very high levels as you push the flow rate. When this happens, you really need larger pipe. That is why I am saying that for a 3/4" pipe system, the 50 PX is probably the best choice, but there is no reason you could not use the 100 PX if you wanted.

The PX-X series pump curves are on the site as well. The analysis method is the same. They have higher flow capabilities but only at low head. At high head requirements, the PX pumps will actually produce more flow.

This is an awesome write up! Thanks so much for putting this together. I didn’t appreciate the amount of head loss simply over long distances or as a function of pipe diameter.

DCR · Dec 10, 2019

ToneReef said:
I wonder if this applies when pulling water out of the main display also?

The hydraulic calculations are the same on the suction or discharge side, but centrifugal pumps are sensitive to low suction pressure. If the inlet pressure is too low, the fluid can degas or even vaporize, causing cavitation inside the pump which destroys the performance. Industrial pump manufacturers generally list the required suction head (referred to as Net Positive Suction Head Required or NPSHR), but I have never seen it stated for any aquarium pump. It is the required suction head above vapor pressure of the fluid. For most aquarium applications, this is not an issue as you would likely need over 15 ft of head loss in the suction line for this to ever become an issue.

I am still concerned about what you mean by "pulling water from the display". Trying to pull water through 38 ft of suction hose is may cause problems if that is what you are intending. The first problem is getting the hose completely flooded and free of air. Normally you want your suction line to be as short as possible and self venting back to the source. That is hard to do with that much line. You need to have a plan for accomplishing this. The second potential problem is the NSPHR problem discussed above. If you have excessive line loss in the suction, you may start to cavitate the pump. If this happens, you can get around it by throttling back on the discharge of the pump to reduce the flow rate. This will reduce the suction line loss and stop the cavitation.

ToneReef · Dec 10, 2019

DCR said:
The hydraulic calculations are the same on the suction or discharge side, but centrifugal pumps are sensitive to low suction pressure. If the inlet pressure is too low, the fluid can degas or even vaporize, causing cavitation inside the pump which destroys the performance. Industrial pump manufacturers generally list the required suction head (referred to as Net Positive Suction Head Required or NPSHR), but I have never seen it stated for any aquarium pump. It is the required suction head above vapor pressure of the fluid. For most aquarium applications, this is not an issue as you would likely need over 15 ft of head loss in the suction line for this to ever become an issue.

I am still concerned about what you mean by "pulling water from the display". Trying to pull water through 38 ft of suction hose is may cause problems if that is what you are intending. The first problem is getting the hose completely flooded and free of air. Normally you want your suction line to be as short as possible and self venting back to the source. That is hard to do with that much line. You need to have a plan for accomplishing this. The second potential problem is the NSPHR problem discussed above. If you have excessive line loss in the suction, you may start to cavitate the pump. If this happens, you can get around it by throttling back on the discharge of the pump to reduce the flow rate. This will reduce the suction line loss and stop the cavitation.

Wow, that’s unfortunate. I’ve seen a reefer that its worked for him with even an 5/8 Id rubber hose 50’ away. However, he doesn’t specify the pump he used, he did mention it was a Pan World but didn’t say the model. So to remove my 20 to 25% water from my 90 gallon system will be the tricky part. Still using the 50 px right, ? even for the water removal part... Let’s see what happens, sorry for all the question DCR, I truly appreciate your knowledge on the subject and help on this issue. I do have to say I’ve learned a great deal... thanks

ToneReef · Dec 10, 2019

ToneReef said:
Wow, that’s unfortunate. I’ve seen a reefer that its worked for him with even an 5/8 Id rubber hose 50’ away. However, he doesn’t specify the pump he used, he did mention it was a Pan World but didn’t say the model. So to remove my 20 to 25% water from my 90 gallon system will be the tricky part. Still using the 50 px right, ? even for the water removal part... Let’s see what happens, sorry for all the question DCR, I truly appreciate your knowledge on the subject and help on this issue. I do have to say I’ve learned a great deal... thanks

He says, he crack open a bit the ball valve leading to the pump from the salt water container to prime pump and in 15 sec or so the hose begins to suck water out. Not sure. Maybe that pretty much helps the hose to work like a syphon... ??? That way reducing vacuum cavitation, but again, not sure I’m just assuming at this point..

DCR · Dec 10, 2019

ToneReef said:
He says, he crack open a bit the ball valve leading to the pump from the salt water container to prime pump and in 15 sec or so the hose begins to suck water out. Not sure. Maybe that pretty much helps the hose to work like a syphon... ??? That way reducing vacuum cavitation, but again, not sure I’m just assuming at this point..

You can make it work. You will just need to find a way to purge the air out of the hose and prime the pump similar to what your friend has done. A smaller pump might be an advantage here, or you can always just throttle back on the discharge to reduce any cavitation. If it is only a 90 gal system, you might even want to consider a 40 PX as you are still only talking about a few minutes to make a 20-25% water change. Less likely to have any cavitation issues.

Edit: You might try first pumping some fresh salt water from the mixing station to the tank to purge the air and prime the pump and then reverse the valving to pump out of the display. Just a suggestion.

ToneReef · Dec 22, 2019

DCR said:
You can make it work. You will just need to find a way to purge the air out of the hose and prime the pump similar to what your friend has done. A smaller pump might be an advantage here, or you can always just throttle back on the discharge to reduce any cavitation. If it is only a 90 gal system, you might even want to consider a 40 PX as you are still only talking about a few minutes to make a 20-25% water change. Less likely to have any cavitation issues.

Edit: You might try first pumping some fresh salt water from the mixing station to the tank to purge the air and prime the pump and then reverse the valving to pump out of the display. Just a suggestion.

It worked lol, thanks so much for the advice man. I went with the 50px actually got it for a pretty good deal. Got it a few days back and tested it today and not only did it push the freshly mixed salt water but it also pulled the water out of the tank with ease. I did exactly as you told me, pumped a bit of fresh water in to purge the air and prime and it started to suck the water out within second, at pretty good pressure too. I wanted to thank you for the advice

Jaebster · Dec 29, 2019

ToneReef said:
It worked lol, thanks so much for the advice man. I went with the 50px actually got it for a pretty good deal. Got it a few days back and tested it today and not only did it push the freshly mixed salt water but it also pulled the water out of the tank with ease. I did exactly as you told me, pumped a bit of fresh water in to purge the air and prime and it started to suck the water out within second, at pretty good pressure too. I wanted to thank you for the advice

How to you have your mixing station plumbed? Can you show a picture? And explain how you drain out the dirty water so it doesnt contaminate mixing station water?

I'm planning on the same thing however I'm going with the 200 pump cuz I need to push up about 15ft vertically and across 30ft horizontally. Thanks!