Who's doing the full triton method?

[Scott.h]

I'm considering the method, as in my new water I'm always tweaking kh, adding no3 and po4. So doing water changes seems like a waste, and is also inconsistent with parameters.

My issues are this:

Not many seem to know much about th3 method. So help doesn't seem available.

I keep losing the translation back to German on the website, so there is a language barrier

By the time I consistently send samples in and buy trace elements,is it easier or cheaper just to do water changes?

Where is the best place in the U.S. to buy, what do I need, and how much is generally needed?

Any insite would be appreciated

 

[iemsparticus]

Just an FYI, it looks like BRS will be selling this soon. Might be something to keep your eye on.

 

[Bbart]

Unique corals is where I get all my stuff from. They also have a triton us sponsor forum here on reef 2 reef (same guy runs both I think).
I've been doing it for quite a while and could maybe answer some of your basic questions.

Basically it revolves around testing with icp, using there 4 part base "elements" in equal proportion to maintain a alk of 8 and having a large refugium (NO3)/ GDP (PO4) for nutrient export. They also have dosing recommendations for individual elements deemed difficent based on the icp analysis.

Can be really expensive for large well stocked tanks but I justify it by not spending money and effort on water changes. It still doesn't make it as cheep as limewater(not even close) but devoting time to water changes is for me better spent on something else.

I'd search for Randy's article on when he did testing as well as dig up the sceptical reefkeeping article by Rich Ross so you don't have unreasonable expectations about what it can do. (will post them both in another post so it can be deleted if it violates any rules)

 

[Bbart]

Articles referenced above
Randy's
http://www.reefedition.com/my-triton-testing-results-by-randy-holmes-farley/
Skeptical reefkeeping
http://packedhead.net/2015/triton-lab-icp-oes-testing-of-a-certified-artificial-saltwater-standard/

 

[Bbart]

I'll also point out that project coral at the horniman in the U.K. (One of the few that have had success with captive spawning coral) uses the the service.

So everything is not rainbows and unicorn farts one of my biggest complaints is that my average turn around time is 10 days from putting my test in the mail to getting my results posted. If you "need" another chemical that you don't have to dose figure in another 3-5 days for that to get in. Then if your for instance using detox (one of their products) to remove say zinc that stays in the tank 3 days and then is scrubbed out with carbon 2-3 days. Then you mail off another test with a 10 day turn around.

All that to say it could be 30 days from thinking "something doesn't look quite right" through identification of a problem to verification that what "should" fix it actually does.

 

[Scott.h]

I'll also point out that project coral at the horniman in the U.K. (One of the few that have had success with captive spawning coral) uses the the service.

So everything is not rainbows and unicorn farts one of my biggest complaints is that my average turn around time is 10 days from putting my test in the mail to getting my results posted. If you "need" another chemical that you don't have to dose figure in another 3-5 days for that to get in. Then if your for instance using detox (one of their products) to remove say zinc that stays in the tank 3 days and then is scrubbed out with carbon 2-3 days. Then you mail off another test with a 10 day turn around.

All that to say it could be 30 days from thinking "something doesn't look quite right" through identification of a problem to verification that what "should" fix it actually does.

Thanks for taking the time to share all that. It makes sense. I didn't realize the inaccuracy factor that could exist. I completely understand about the time lapse of problem solving. Sometimes sucking water out and replacing it is easy, hence my hesitation. But I'm spending quite a bit in salt too. And paying $400 every 3 months for water as well.

So let me ask this- Why use their basic elements such as Mg alk and cal? What I'm concerned about is say.. iodine. Do you buy certain trace elements individually, and use a dosing calculator for the other elements? Then add "x" drops of iodine each week? Or does it not work that way? Then once you get a feel for the tanks demands you don't have to send in samples as often? Our test kits for the main elements seem cheap and close enough. So it's the other stuff.

 

[Bbart]

Good questions. I'll see if I can get them all answered. So you are spending a lot on water you still want to use ro/di for top up. Other than that no water changes unless you have an element present that is not removable by other means (lithium seems to be prevelent in the states). So you will save some money but not all of your 400$.

To clarify their base elements flame to contain all the stuff to maintain a balanced reef. I wish they would layout the make up of their secret stuff but I think it would be way easy to do on your own and they get to charge a butt load so I can see why they wouldn't change it. All that to say that ideally you shouldn't have to do a lot of indevidual additions.

As far as additions drops are a bad way to look at it always think in a reproducible measurement, mL in this case. Droppers can be great but dose different amounts based on orientation. So for my 210 total volume reef I add 31.6 ml of each of the 4 core elements over the course of the day (I have a 18" clam so that takes up a lot) and Saturday I add 8 mL of their iodine supplement (thinking of adding this to top off).

Then I send in a test once every 2 months or so and supplement based on their recommendations. For instance this last week I needed to supplement strontium, and potassium on the macro end and I added some molybdenum on the trace end ( I only did that because I already had some on hand).

Another thing to stress is that any of their recommendation can be supplemented in other ways. For instance you can put 40 ppm of potassium into the tank however you want but then you cannot use the recommended dosing amounts that they give you. For some stuff I do just buy their supplement because I don't want to have a math error and kill things. Others I order lab grade reagents and mix them up myself.

As far as how often that's up to you. I set a reoccurring reminder on my phone because the turn around time is so long and isn't really helpful for the "oh **** something is definitely wrong" moments. At some point they were supposed to put in an icp machine in CA and that would defenatly help.

I think the way triton recommends is you should do at least 3 tests. One to see where you are on everything (since the core elements are "balanced" they are not going to correct if you are way low in strontium), another after you get to the point of maintaining 8 dKh with the core elements, and lastly one after some time to see how well the core elements are ballenced for your system.

As far as the eternal accuracy and precision goes I think the skeptical reefkeeper article lays it out better than I ever could. The thing I will add is that there are just somethings that icp can test for that I never can or will. For instance I went through a period before I switched over where I couldn't keep sps (I grew my clam from 4" so everyone I talked to said "do some water changes") to save my life I'd add a frag have great polyp extension for a week then it would bleach and die. Did a triton test and oh look I have elevated zinc do some research and zinc is toxic on the level of copper. Wouldn't have known and couldn't have tested and I could have drained my tank to the bottom and put all new water in and it wouldn't have gotten everything.
Edit: words

 

[Scott.h]

Looking at unique corals site, all I see is the core 4 and soon to be replaced 7 bottles. It appears to be a four part dosing system. I'm assuming the bottles contain alkalinity, magnesium, and calcium, but what is the fourth bottle? Is that the actual trace elements?

Also they want you to keep your alkalinity at 8.0 but my tank cannot run that high. So if your dosing alkalinity to keep it at eight, but the alkalinity also contains "other" trace elements, how do you balance that?

All this confusion is exactly why I never went with the zeovit system LOL. So many bottles it over complicates things

 

[Bbart]

You always dose the same amount of all four. You say your tank can't run at 8 dKh (usually because of low nutrients). That's fine stabilize it a 7 and correct the other elements around it.
Just to make sure we are on the same page this
http://uniquecorals.com/dry-goods/triton/triton-base-elementz-core-7.html
Is what we are talking about when we are talking about the base elements.

Not really that complicated once you have your questions answered. All I do for weekly maintenance is clean my skimmer cup out Monday and Thursday. Add some iodine on Saturday. And turn on my ro/di for 12 hours some time over the weekend to fill my top off barrel.

 

[Bbart]

Here is an overview if you haven't seen it
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/guide-to-the-triton-method.299187/

 

[Scott.h]

You always dose the same amount of all four. You say your tank can't run at 8 dKh (usually because of low nutrients). That's fine stabilize it a 7 and correct the other elements around it.
Just to make sure we are on the same page this
http://uniquecorals.com/dry-goods/triton/triton-base-elementz-core-7.html
Is what we are talking about when we are talking about the base elements.

Not really that complicated once you have your questions answered. All I do for weekly maintenance is clean my skimmer cup out Monday and Thursday. Add some iodine on Saturday. And turn on my ro/di for 12 hours some time over the weekend to fill my to off barrel.

Yes that is what I was referring to. Now is it only the 4 bottles, or how many bottles do you have total? When you say you dose iodine, is that included in one of the 4 bottles or is that separate from the 4?

So where did your zink problem come from? How did you correct it? Triton zink removal?

 

[Bbart]

So the core 7 is the 4 bottles. I use their iodine which is separate.

As far as zinc goes I think it came for my basement set up being under some duct work that is galvanized and getting micro bubbles on it and corroding. I corrected it with their detox product (it is an off label use. It's formulated for copper).

 

[Scott.h]

So the core 7 is the 4 bottles. I use their iodine which is separate.

As far as zinc goes I think it came for my basement set up being under some duct work that is galvanized and getting micro bubbles on it and corroding. I corrected it with their detox product (it is an off label use. It's formulated for copper).

Ok that makes sense now. So if I used all 4 bottles, how would I know how much to dose for each bottle knowing each tanks demands are different? And if I were to use all 4 bottles and try to keep my alk at the 7.0 it is now (yes lower nutrient levels) would some other trace elements be lacking without using as much?

 

[jaws789832]

I have been using it for over a year now and I kinda love it. Mine isn't a true triton method though as my refugium is in the center of the sump and isn't as large as they call for. The core7 keeps my parameters way more stable than I could ever get with 2 part for some reason. You do need 4 dosing pumps though. I don't think its as cut and dry as 1 is alk 1 is calcium, 1 is mag and 1 is trace. I think alkality is split up over 2 of the bottles and the trace elements are mixed in with all 4. When you send in a test it gives you a guide of what else you have to add, iodine, strontium mobellum(sp) and a few others. It spells it out for you (add .5ml every week for 3 weeks, then a maintenance dose of .2ml per week, for example). I send in a test about every 4 months, and since I started everything has stayed spot on. Ti figure out how much to dose its just like everything else with dosing, trial and error. Dose for a few days, test, then adjust , until you get it dialed in. I still do a small water change (about 10 gallons every month) but that is more just to clean something (my sand bed, or the sump). My refugium is crazy. The chaeto becomes so thick (like a brick) and once a week I have to remove a basketball size ball of it. I way over feed ( because my fish love it and my phosphates are usually a little lower than I want (.015), but my nitrates remain right at 4. I have no algae in the DT at all, but I do have a cyano problem that I am not sure where it comes from. Complaints would be what Bbart already mentioned. turnaround on everything takes a while. Availability of the product can become an issue (sometimes unique runs out and you have to wait). I am hoping they start stocking the 10 litre (like in Europe) bottles but then I would have to look into shelf life of the product especially once opened. I use 25 ml/day of the core7 so a 1ltre pack lasts me about 40 days.

 

[Bbart]

For the most part calcium and bicarbonate are used in a reef at the same rate. (Note that they dont exist at the same level. There is way more calcium in the ocean than bicarbonate) any properly balanced doseing (limewater, 2 part, calcium reactor) regime adds them at equivalent rates. Triton 4 Part is balanced as far as that relationship goes. However, there may be some of the same thing in more than one of the bottles. Part 3a and 3b both give that soda ash cloudiness when the are put into the water.

So you dose all 4 in the same amount to maintain a balanced calcium/bicarbonate relationship. For example if you dose 12 mL of all four each day of each for a a day or two and are drooping about .1 dKh a day then up all 4 to 13/14 mL. You keep making small changes like that until it balances out at whatever your chosen dKh is. Just like traditional two part.

Where the triton core 7 stuff differs from any other dosing regime is that the four parts contain other stuff like magnesium, strontium and potassium as well as some trace elements. They keep exactly what those are and what ratio they exist in as a trade secret.

What else there isn't two many things I can speak to with anything approaching authority in this hobby but I can help with this

 

[Bbart]

I am hoping they start stocking the 10 litre (like in Europe) bottles but then I would have to look into shelf life of the product especially once opened.

Check again I was able to pick up the 10 L bottles during there president's day sale

 

[d2mini]

I did the full Triton Method for about 9 months.
You dose all 4 bottles exactly the same amount.
Over the course of 9 months, my Triton Tests would come back almost perfect. Only a couple minor elements would sometime be low, like iodine, or potassium. In which case they tell you how much you need to dose to bring it back within spec.
All other parameters stayed within NSW range for me.

 

[Bbart]

Check again I was able to pick up the 10 L bottles during there president's day sale

Huh looks like it's gone. Maybe message them directly I know I got it.... it got me down to something like 35$ per L with the sale

 

[Scott.h]

So if I had 100 gal water volume, I'd dose 8ml a day of each bottle, and each kit would last me 125 days? Assuming they are 4-one liter bottles? And send a sample to triton about every other month once settled. Other then dosing iodine or something small that's pretty much it?

Roughly 52 bucks every four months plus testing? Well, I guess I'd need a second doser.

 

[Scott.h]

I did the full Triton Method for about 9 months.
You dose all 4 bottles exactly the same amount.
Over the course of 9 months, my Triton Tests would come back almost perfect. Only a couple minor elements would sometime be low, like iodine, or potassium. In which case they tell you how much you need to dose to bring it back within spec.
All other parameters stayed within NSW range for me.

why did you stop?