Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
What makes you think we're running out of bacteria. They're everywhere.Truly honest question, supposing that we are not adding bleach to our systems. What’s happening to the bacteria this days? Is it dying and if it’s dying how can we introduce new bacteria, if we can’t even sustain the ones we were supposed to have, it seems to be the new trend, add as many as you can. Is microbe diversity really achieved this way?
I always had in mind that diversity was achieved with a stable system and if it’s stable are we really loosing out on something?
We’ll said, that’s a great approach to reef keepingWhy are all systems running out of bacteria?
Due to the large number of mostly beginner questions asking if their systems need additional bottled bacteria on a regular basis, I can see why you may think this is a real thing.
The problem is not that bacteria are being lost from a properly set up system (only the unwise introduction of chemicals hostile to microbial life and catastrophic events can cause this), it's that a system is often not being set up properly in the first place. Dry rock and dry sand by themselves certainly do not make for a diverse and populous community of microorganisms!
Way back in the early days of reef keeping here in the US we followed one rule and that was either use all live rock (preferred) or if not available/too expensive at least a mix of ~50/50 base rock and quality live rock for the top. Base rock was usually from a reef's 'rubble zone' that got tossed around by wave action so much that not much grew on it (or could have been from an aquarist's sump) and the live rock was the premium rock from calmer reef areas that had lots of coralline, macro algae, sponges, etc. Bacteria was never an issue for a properly operating system and no one ever 'ran out of it'
Case in point: My 14 year old reef has higher biodiversity than the average 5 year old system (Aquabiomics test) and most of the live rock (Indo-pacific) and sand is 25 year old. This doesn't speak to loss any possible loss of bacteria, but it's well known that a diverse community of microorganisms will populate every available niche (substrates and free living).
That’s always been my thoughts tooI am no microbiologist but I would think adding a single coral frag would bring in more diversity than all the bottled products combined. If you want that biodiversity get some live rock. Even the stuff rotting in buckets at your LFS is good for seeding whatever diversity we are after. Ideally some rock from a trusted friend's old tank.
I have no doubt in the quality of the products we are being offered, I’m more in the thought why do a stable mature system needs the addition of so much diversity, where did things go wrong, all the bacteria that comes in the bottle was supposed to already be in the system. What happened to the bacteria that was in the tank for the need to add moreI think that bacteria get skimmed out over time or filtered out depending on what type of mechanical filtration is used.
I know Dr. Tim makes good products. The results can actually be measured. You can easily measure your nutrient levels and then dose Waste Away or Eco-balance in a dirty tank. Wait 24-48 hrs and measure again. Both are concentrated products. The first time I used Waste Away I heard a strange gurgling noise coming from my tank early that morning. When I went to investigate the pipes were making a funny noise which wasn’t the case before I dosed. The pipes became much cleaner allowing better water flow. At that point I realized how effective specific bacteria like (Waste Away) or [Heterotrophic bacteria] could be. Only 1/2 half dose was very effective. I typically don’t even do that much anymore. I just do 1/4 dose currently and it’s been effective at fighting Dino’s (helps outcompete them), but also doesn’t drop my nutrient levels too aggressively.
The question is how much do we need in the system and how to measure when their gone? I don’t really want to pay for an Aquabiomics test every 2 months so I try to watch the algae growth and look at nutrient numbers as a few ways to blindly measure the amount of bacteria in the system. Probably not the best indicators, but pay $100 for a test is too much for me.
Like mentioned above…when I dose Ecobalance or Waste Away it’s consuming nutrients, but there is a decline as time passes. Are they being skimmed out this fast? Should the skimmer be off for a few hours daily and if so can this be measured looking at nutrient levels (specifically phosphate) to understand how well this works and how long it should be off. We know Heterotrophic bacteria can divide in 20 minutes so this will work for them, but what about Nitrifiers? Will they be able to compete for surface area as we know they do not multiply nearly as fast or will they get outcompeted? Should we put competitors in the system that can grow much faster and steal all the available micronutrients that our Nitrifiers need? However, they must still be in the system since we know these bacteria are Ammonia and Nitrite Oxidizer’s. I guess the question I have is how to properly balance them both. A lot of other questions in my mind also.
Also, how big of a role do trace elements play with the bacterial diversity or population? I suspect it’s important as I’ve noticed a much healthier tank keeping the Trace’s in range as opposed to them being depleted or low. Could be coincidence though.? The water is more clear, algae doesn’t seem to be as aggressive, nutrients are much easier to manage, corals are happier with better polyp extension. Maybe this is due to traces alone and not so much the bacteria, but I do feel that the microbiology as a whole need phosphate and a lot of different trace elements to not only grow, but to thrive and populate in the tank.
@Dr Tim’s Aquatics?
A variety of foods may be importantPlenty of bacteria here. If your running out of it try feeding more,,, idk
Coral do have and need bacteria to live, but there is no connection between coral health and bottled bacteria. I am not certain whether anyone has demonstrated a link between coral health and the presence of live rock from the ocean ( a potential source of bacteria).Exactly. It’s so silly to me how people are trying to collect bacteria like it’s Pokémon cards.
As far as I’m concerned, I believe “not enough bacteria” is just a catch all to explain why corals are dying. But logically, it doesn’t make sense to me. Corals share symbiosis with zooxanthellae. As long as the parameters are in proper range, there’s some organic matter to feed the corals, light, and flow: I fail to see how not having enough bacteria could cause an issue.
Unless your corals are starving to death so you feed bacteria.
Here’s a thought provoking question: ever seen those reef shows where they quickly set up exhibit tanks and fully stock it with corals? Do you think those people needed to worry about EDNA sequencing and collecting mud from places? Probably not. It’s bogus IMO.
I stopped worrying about bacteria. With dry rocks, they often leach nutrients and there’s a lot of competition for open territory. If algae grows and smothers corals, that’s not good.
I believe It gets skimmed and filtered out over time. Maybe not depleted, but I think the population may become lower and need to be supplemented.I have no doubt in the quality of the products we are being offered, I’m more in the thought why do a stable mature system needs the addition of so much diversity, where did things go wrong, all the bacteria that comes in the bottle was supposed to already be in the system. What happened to the bacteria that was in the tank for the need to add more
Where is the bacteria found? On the corals themselves?Coral do have and need bacteria to live
I believe It gets skimmed and filtered out over time. Maybe not depleted, but I think the population may become lower and need to be supplemented.
Where is the bacteria found? On the corals themselves?
Why are all systems running out of bacteria?
Due to the large number of mostly beginner questions asking if their systems need additional bottled bacteria on a regular basis, I can see why you may think this is a real thing.
The problem is not that bacteria are being lost from a properly set up system (only the unwise introduction of chemicals hostile to microbial life and catastrophic events can cause this), it's that a system is often not being set up properly in the first place. Dry rock and dry sand by themselves certainly do not make for a diverse and populous community of microorganisms!
Way back in the early days of reef keeping here in the US we followed one rule and that was either use all live rock (preferred) or if not available/too expensive at least a mix of ~50/50 base rock and quality live rock for the top. Base rock was usually from a reef's 'rubble zone' that got tossed around by wave action so much that not much grew on it (or could have been from an aquarist's sump) and the live rock was the premium rock from calmer reef areas that had lots of coralline, macro algae, sponges, etc. Bacteria was never an issue for a properly operating system and no one ever 'ran out of it'
Case in point: My 14 year old reef has higher biodiversity than the average 5 year old system (Aquabiomics test) and most of the live rock (Indo-pacific) and sand is 25 year old. This doesn't speak to loss any possible loss of bacteria, but it's well known that a diverse community of microorganisms will populate every available niche (substrates and free living).
I have not heard of this as being a problem before except when maybe when there have been crashes or possibly when meds have been used on fish that might also affect the bacterial balance. Was there a study done on this? I would like to read the sources you got this info from. It's entirely possible that in our closed systems the bacteria eventually gets stripped out and needs to be replenished so I would like to read more about this.Truly honest question, supposing that we are not adding bleach to our systems. What’s happening to the bacteria this days? Is it dying and if it’s dying how can we introduce new bacteria, if we can’t even sustain the ones we were supposed to have, it seems to be the new trend, add as many as you can. Is microbe diversity really achieved this way?
I always had in mind that diversity was achieved with a stable system and if it’s stable are we really loosing out on something?
I’ve noticed something odd when skimming. I’ve never liked cleaning the cup but thought aeration was of utmost importance, so I’ve had one on for ages. Four or 5 weeks ago I removed the skimmer and just ran the needle wheel pump in the sump (never tried that before). For the first few weeks I got a foam head on the sump surface, as you would expect. Then the foam head disappeared. This can only be due to bacteria consuming it surely. Makes me think that folks are not allowing the bacteria to develope in the foam when skimming and it ends up as a self fulfilling prophecy.Think about it this way. If you were to somehow manage to remove 1/2 of the total number of bacteria from a typical reef aquarium what would the remaining bacteria do? They'd immediately get busy and start reproducing to fill the void! On one end, some of our bacteria can replicate within the hour and some might take a few days, but within a relatively short period of time bacterial numbers would be back to whatever the system's microorganism physical holding capacity is (determined by how much space, both substrate and free living volume, is available in the system).
Yes, but it seems they come equipped with them. I don’t recall anyone claiming you have to adjust their biome to keep them healthy in a new aquarium, though it is just a matter of time before somebody starts selling a coral biome elixir.Where is the bacteria found? On the corals themselves?
They indeed do. I read a couple of articles about it but I don’t have them handy at the moment (and too tired to find them). There was also a study done on dying Florida corals.Where is the bacteria found? On the corals themselves?
It's entirely possible that in our closed systems the bacteria eventually gets stripped out and needs to be replenished so I would like to read more about this.
Started a tank approximately 3.5 mos ago with live rock from KP aquatics. I will literally never do it with dry rock again. I'm feeding enough zooplankton and phytoplankton to create an algae forest the size of the Amazon, and there is literally no algae. The water is absolutely crystal clear. I've found some icky pests, like a leopard polyclad flatworm that ate three of my snails, a mithrax crab that ate a bunch of macros and a photosynthetic sponge, and there's a couple crabs I'm still working on catching, but overall it's a lot more fun and the tank is far more stable than my 2.5 year old tank, which is still struggling - you can tell something is out of whack, but it's none of the normal parameters or anything one can test for. My relationship with the new tank hasn't been "abusive" (heh.) and I have all sorts of cool tunicates, brittlestars, a pistol shrimp, fan-worms, sponges, and other things I haven't yet identified.Bacteria can be a funny thing. There are so many stains that compete for similar resources. One thought I have on this is the use of “man made live rock”. Everyone has shifted to dry rock or cultured rock. I think that has a serious effect on bacteria balance. Not saying it’s not good to be sustainable but real live rock carries a lot of micro fauna that can be very benificial.