Why are LED lights so Expensive?

[CO_reefer]

This thread is pretty funny. I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and complaining or defending will not change the industry one bit, but I get it. The ones I think are the biggest joke, are people saying "Im tired of this discussion". You do realize you clicked on it and read it, there are thousands of other threads with myriads of topics. No one made you read this! IMO cordial discussion/debate is always valuable if you care to take interest, no matter what the subject.

 

[Fishingandreefing]

Your Jebaos are pushing 4k gph?

An OW50 pushing 5,283GPH for $89.00 lol. Sure, it doesnt have all the control capabilities and the hefty price tag. This reminds me when I first got my so call luxury car when I was younger 15 years ago that came with a “racing” pedal shifters, sports mode and all the fancy stuffs that I don’t even use but to brag about. Now I just need something that works, and cheap. Again, it’s your money and buy as you wish.

 

[Fishingandreefing]

My buddy barely makes 6 figures a year. He’s wise with his money and saves up. He invests his money in boats and sells them 2 years later to make a profit. When you budget for your hobby and are wise with your money you can afford things like nice boats or radions.

I got all 7 of my radion xr15 G4 averaging $200-$250 with mounts. (One was brand new unopened)

 

[ca1ore]

The quotes in the first post are just for Simon.

Excellent!

Although total-lifetime-$$-to-date in audio equipment dwarfs the same measure for aquariums, I don’t spend much anymore on the former. For me to improve on what I have would be largely pointless (hearing is not getting better) and cost stupid money (even for hiend audio). Mostly I’m on the lookout for spares of what I have since the failure rate of boutique audio exceeds even that of reef equipment companies.

 

[cesar6261]

simple they are a company seeking a profit and people continue to shell out money like myself so, yea. Lights are the iphones of the reef industry.

 

[creativeballance]

Here is my $.02
I've been in the LED signage industry for 12 years, as a senior technician and R&D lead.
There is a tremendous amount of difference between LED grades and manufacturers.

Here's a specific story:
My company produced white LED gas price digit displays for the Mexico Market. Everything worked great on the product samples and at test sites in the US. 2 months later, started getting reports of multiple failures of the LEDs. This first batch was supposed to have used Cree chip sets.
Our board manufacturer whose responsibility it was to install the LEDs claimed it was an issue within receiving a batch of counterfeit LEDs, meaning that they were actually toy grade rather than the LED we were expecting. Who knows what really happend. On my scope, the looked like genuine Cree chips, and had the same voltage drop as the Cree chip we speced.

On the next we speced Epistar, a Taiwan LED. However we still had failures.

Third try, we got the highest grade that Epistar had. Still less failure, but one or two LED lights on a fixture or having premature degradation still made the product look horrible and required a replacement.

Fourth try, we used Nichia from Japan. 10x the cost, but they actually worked.
Of course with 10 times the cost, we priced our selves out of that market.

So yes, there are absolutely different quality LEDs even though the front page of the specification sheet may look the same.

 

[X-37B]

I got all 7 of my radion xr15 G4 averaging $200-$250 with mounts. (One was brand new unopened)

Thats a used price point I could live with lol.

Here is my $.02
I've been in the LED signage industry for 12 years, as a senior technician and R&D lead.
There is a tremendous amount of difference between LED grades and manufacturers.

Here's a specific story:
My company produced white LED gas price digit displays for the Mexico Market. Everything worked great on the product samples and at test sites in the US. 2 months later, started getting reports of multiple failures of the LEDs. This first batch was supposed to have used Cree chip sets.
Our board manufacturer whose responsibility it was to install the LEDs claimed it was an issue within receiving a batch of counterfeit LEDs, meaning that they were actually toy grade rather than the LED we were expecting. Who knows what really happend. On my scope, the looked like genuine Cree chips, and had the same voltage drop as the Cree chip we speced.

On the next we speced Epistar, a Taiwan LED. However we still had failures.

Third try, we got the highest grade that Epistar had. Still less failure, but one or two LED lights on a fixture or having premature degradation still made the product look horrible and required a replacement.

Fourth try, we used Nichia from Japan. 10x the cost, but they actually worked.
Of course with 10 times the cost, we priced our selves out of that market.

So yes, there are absolutely different quality LEDs even though the front page of the specification sheet may look the same.

That is very interesting.
I wonder where our reef led chips come from.
Might explain the failures many have seen and the higer cost of other units.

 

[sas226]

I have decided to chime in with my own thoughts on this issue. Not that long ago when I worked at an LFS the most popular tank size we sold was a 125. We also sold many 120s and 180s but very few nanos. I visited the shop I used to work at today and they told me that they sell hardly any big tanks now. Now AIOs and 40 breeders are their best sellers.

For whatever reason people are getting smaller tanks. I believe it is a combination of better nano equipment and the increased price of large colonies. When the OP speaks of needing 6 lights keep in mind that this may be for people like me with 6ft tanks but now people who would have set up a 4 foot 120 years ago are now setting up a 40 breeder but with the same budget. I have to believe this is a large factor in why light prices have risen.

Have they risen though? When I took down my last tank in 2012, the price for AI's lights were roughly what they are now.

Yes, they are inflated. We’ve already gotten this point across. AI lights are made by ecotech with the same components. Hydra 32 = $370 : radion xr30 g4 pro= $840. Yes the radion puts out more wattage but it’s the same two puck design with a similar amount of led’s. It’s a niche market and you get what you pay for.

IMO, AI's lights are a real butterpoint between the Ecotechs and lower end lights. Lots of control, good light, and a not outrageous price.

 

[Jeeperz]

Do you have a specific light example in mind? If so, please let us know how much you'd charge to manufacture and sell the same light. Please try to account for material, labor, packaging, distribution, support, R&D, etc.

Maybe ask danlu @reefi. He designed and manufacturers a, I think Superior led, for the same or less than some others. You have to think of a $50 light to manufacture has to support all those in the chain up to the share holders, who are really to blame for out of control pricing.

 

[Jeeperz]

I don't understand why, and I think it's very odd, but this site seems to be obsessed with price vs. perceived value. I'm into other hobbies that aren't cheap and do not have good returns on equipment and there's no price complaints. I swear some members on this forum (not directed at you, OP, or anyone in this thread) would go to Ruth's Chris and complain that they don't have a $1 value menu.

I would as Ruth's Chris food is not really very good, or the extremely dark dining experience, who wants to eat in a mostly dark room and pay $50+ for a steak

 

[Jeeperz]

Why are these company’s putting out a light fixture that cost $840 a piece.

The word "expensive" is subjective, and so is "worth" and "value". You can't fault someone for questioning the price of led fixtures.

I'm not the one buying them :), and I know dozens of hardcore reef keepers with incredible tanks that have never bought a Radion or similiar overpriced light and never will. Most run black boxes...the rest run T5's.

I'll quote the statistics again; the average salt water hobbiest is in and out of the hobby in less than 24 months. They spend a lot of money initially and these lighting companies need to get as much money from them as possible up front before they end up selling their gear on the local reef forum. That's why the lights don't last.

Serious reefers *do not* buy lights that put out 60watts and cost $800. Those are for the idiots with a lot of cash to burn and want a Pirates of the Caribbean mode. *All* the LEDs used in these over priced lights I can buy from Mouser for a couple bucks, and frankly I could design better thermal management and certainly use better drivers. All the lights I build are spec'd for 100k hours with 70% performance. Reef lights don't even measure up to the standards of the general lighting industry yet cost 4-8x more per lumen.

Then we have comments like:

"There is also significantly less fidgeting with settings to optimize coloration and growth. T5’s just work."

...which are so ridiculous they barely warrant response, but since T5 owners seem to be in a religion that defies scientific basis I'm not surprised.

When you have people that believe Fluorescent tubes were created for the reefing industry and T5s (which have a lower life expetency than T8 and T12's which is why T5's never look off in the general lighting industry) emit specially tuned photons that automatically adjust to the light requirements of coral it makes the people buying the $800 60 wall LED fixture seem like mensa candidates.

Uh, t5s are the most common warehouse lighting today. MH have been replaced by them. Next time you are in a high bay shop or warehouse, look up. 90% chance it's t5

 

[Jeeperz]

When led bulb replacements and LED T5 replacements came out I swtithed over about half my house within a year or 2...as as the regular and floresent that were left go bad I have slowly switched just about everything left to LED. I have yet to have to replace a single LED anything ever. My current tank has been on LEDs for about 10-12 years. My next tank will absolutly be 100% LED. But with that said I stay away from echotech anything.

I've replaced plenty of led bulbs. Some more than the previous incandescent bulbs. And the LEDs are way, way more expensive and don't tolerate cold weather well. I still use led bulbs when possible though, sometimes they last a few years

 

[homer1475]

Yup every couple weeks there is a "why is this so expensive" thread.

Every one of those threads turns into a measuring epenis's. "I'm an expert at this, and I'm an expert on that" yet not a one of these so called experts are experts in reef aquariums, or experts in the field relating to reef aquaria. So your a lighting expert because you handle them on a movie set, or you install lights in warehouses, who cares? None of those situations have anything to do with lighting a reef tank and simulating the sun.

I just have to LOL when I see threads like these pop up.

 

[2Wheelsonly]

My biggest complaint is how many you need. Once your tank starts growing out even the "24x24" is suspect. I could NOT get away with any less than 8 on my 300G so I switched to hybrid to help with shadowing.

$8k for lights is a bit much, the thought of adding more than that was a definite NOPE from me. Don't care how hot these T5's get I am not going with more LED than the 8 I already have. :(

 

[Aardvark1134]

My main thing is...everyone hates the cost of lighting yet wants a sps domaint tank for some reason. Hint a LPS/softie tank only needs 1/2 the light and ...this is biggest part...softie/lps tanks done well look so much better than full sps ones. The only way I would ever do a full sps tank would be if I were doing like 29G or smaller tank. I just don't think they look near as nice. Somehow their high cost of lighting and supplements has convinced all the new people that it must be the best looking.

 

[The Night Driving Avenger]

Agreed. Everything in this hobby is extremely expensive and almost feels like a cash grab.

EDit: I love it when these companies give a whole 10% discount on an item that costs $500. what the heck is 10% gonna do? It's not going to entice me to buy the item

only been in the hobby since october but i bought someones whole set up off them and im slowly upgrading each piece of equipment but buying second hand. Not dropping £600+ on lights when i can get ones just as good that have only been used for a few months to a year for say £300. even just a bracket to hold a light can cost upwards of £80!

 

[45ZoaGarden]

only been in the hobby since october but i bought someones whole set up off them and im slowly upgrading each piece of equipment but buying second hand. Not dropping £600+ on lights when i can get ones just as good that have only been used for a few months to a year for say £300. even just a bracket to hold a light can cost upwards of £80!

Lights are risky to buy used. The main question is why is the seller trying to get rid of the light. He could’ve noticed the cooling fan starting to go out. 1 year is out of warranty for most manufacturers. The light could’ve been dropped in the tank. You just never know. Lights, besides dosers and the tank, are the most important pieces of equipment in this hobby. Don’t skimp on lights. Buy once, cry once.

 

[45ZoaGarden]

My main thing is...everyone hates the cost of lighting yet wants a sps domaint tank for some reason. Hint a LPS/softie tank only needs 1/2 the light and ...this is biggest part...softie/lps tanks done well look so much better than full sps ones. The only way I would ever do a full sps tank would be if I were doing like 29G or smaller tank. I just don't think they look near as nice. Somehow their high cost of lighting and supplements has convinced all the new people that it must be the best looking.

Exactly LOL! I’ve been in the hobby long enough to be bored with sps only tanks. Sure it’s an accomplishment but it’s so boring to look at. I only have had mixed tanks with a few sps in the top third. I’m working on adding some sticks to my newer 45. I’m plotting on an elegance or trachy for the sand bed too. I like corals with movement. Lots of euphyllia in my tank ;)

 

[X-37B]

Lights are risky to buy used. The main question is why is the seller trying to get rid of the light. He could’ve noticed the cooling fan starting to go out. 1 year is out of warranty for most manufacturers. The light could’ve been dropped in the tank. You just never know. Lights, besides dosers and the tank, are the most important pieces of equipment in this hobby. Don’t skimp on lights. Buy once, cry once.

Funny, almost anything used is a risk imo.
Wont stop me though.
I purchased a used ati unit.
One fan did not work the other was loud and both rusted.
Reflectors shot.
Sanded smooth the reflectors and coated them with white epoxy paint.
I run no fans, no shield, and 4" off the surface on a 90% sps system.
Got flamed by ati for asking how long the bulbs would last and they never answered the question lol.
Have not checked par but coral growth is very good.
Been running for almost a year. Is it perfect? No but it works for me.
I will probably get flamed here too but its ok.
It was the only piece of equipment that I purchased used when I setup my system.
Since then I purchased a few used 6105's at a great price to replace the jeabos which are now for backup only.
Many ways to run a reef imo.

 

[45ZoaGarden]

Funny, almost anything used is a risk imo.
Wont stop me though.
I purchased a used ati unit.
One fan did not work the other was loud and both rusted.
Reflectors shot.
Sanded smooth the reflectors and coated them with white epoxy paint.
I run no fans, no shield, and 4" off the surface on a 90% sps system.
Got flamed by ati for asking how long the bulbs would last and they never answered the question lol.
Have not checked par but coral growth is very good.
Been running for almost a year. Is it perfect? No but it works for me.
I will probably get flamed here too but its ok.
It was the only piece of equipment that I purchased used when I setup my system.
Since then I purchased a few used 6105's at a great price to replace the jeabos which are now for backup only.
Many ways to run a reef imo.

The fans not working won’t cause the unit to melt? I’m sure you could find a small computer fan on amazon to replace the broken ones. I’d be worried about heat without cooling fans. LED’s will cook the motherboard without cooling fans