Why are my zoas melting?

littlebigreef

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 25, 2016
Messages
1,718
Reaction score
1,978
Location
Batavia IL
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
Thank you for your assistance and sharing your ideas. You covered a lot of things here so sorry if I miss a question you asked in your reply, but here we go. I ran the Reeflux treatments more as a lets see approach, as I have heard in the past that even small filaments of algae could irritate zoa's and prevent them from opening and maybe I had algae on them that I could not see and my CUC would not touch it. I have done two full tank Chemiclean treatments and one 5 gallon bucket treatments with a few troubled zoa's left in overnight for 24 hours. Unfortunately that was not the fix for me. I use Red Sea blue bucket salt and mix it to 1.026 which works out to be about 10.0 Dkh, which is what I hold it at with an Alk auto-doser. The tank consumes around 14.5ml per day, which is dosed 12 times throughout the day, so I'm not sure on the total swings that may be occurring.

The par on the tank varies by location as you can imagine, the highest of par readings I have where the zoa's are kept was around 205-210, and the lowest was around 80/90 on the edge of the tank where I do keep a few frag racks and Zoa's. On average I would venture to guess the PAR is around 130/160,

Tank is 8-9 months old (100 gallon system) with skimmer and ATS and standard socks and a Pentair 25W UV. I spot feed once a week with Reef Roids and Broadcast feed once a week also with Reef Roids at night. Additionally, I will add Reef Energy once or twice a week during peak whites (no real reason, it just seems fancy),

Regarding the reef-flux that makes sense. Certainly algae can be an irritant. Another issue that I’ve seen reported more and more are tiny hydroids that present like fine white hairs on polyps. While these are unaffected by reef-flux swabbing with a mild peroxide mix generally tends to knock them out. Based on discussions with other zoa keepers these can spread rapidly and be pretty destructive when introduced.

One note on the chemi-clean. When it comes to dipping I’ve found repeated concentrated concentrated dips (4 days on, 1 day off, repeat as necessary) to be most effective in knocking out issues (best described as when the polyps look dirty or appear to have marbling algae on the tissue). This is obviously a pretty involved hands on approach that might be too labor intensive for a standard display. I consider the system wide dosing to be more of a back stop- though still effective- way of treating for this issue.

Based on your dosing method you can likely rule out alk as an issue.

As for par it’s worth considering further. There’s many different opinions and plenty of anecdotal evidence with less hard factual science to back it up. In short I’ve found that *many zoas do well between 100-160par. Naturally some are able to adapt to higher par without issue over the course of time. It’s been my experience that tougher strains, halls, blood shots, wolverines, poinsettias etc prefer 80-100par. Yet, par is only half of the equation. In my old system I ran these numbers in both the display and the zoa tank. However, the Ecoray Ray LEDs in display could not support all the strains the same as the T5 LED hybrid over the zoas. Now, ecorays have a simple on/off configuration for white and blue diodes. I know some of these newer LED units allow you to tinker with the wavelength. Fwiw I tend to run more blue+, purple+ and coral+ T5’s with a single reefbrite xho blue down the middle- so in my systems it skews more blue. I’m not suggesting you switch to T5’s on account of zoas, but, if you have a programmable LED unit it might be worth looking into settings other folks are running.

I don’t see any other red flags with the set up or what you’re doing. The roid dosing should offset the newness of the aquarium (IMO it’s generally 12-15 to reach tank maturity).

One last thing to consider would be the zoas themselves. Without going down a name rabbit-hole I would expect many of the commonly available zoas to do well for you. Do you find yourself struggling with a certain ‘type’ ie bam bam like zoas, sunny d like (larger) Magician like (largest)? Finally, maricultured/wild collected vs aquaculture makes a huge difference. As someone who actively works with maricultured and wild collected strains I can tell you first hand the mortality rate is generally above 50% after 9 months (when pests, diseases, Ect are addressed). As we know with the OG Krakatoa some of these just never adapt well (or long term) to captivity. So, just another avenue to consider. Where you get your zoas from and the chain of custody (if imported) factors in to your long term success.
 
OP
OP
clhardy5

clhardy5

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
400
Reaction score
246
Location
Aurora, CO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
So, I got my ICP results back - only thing out of whack is Lithium, and even that at its current number is not known to cause issues, and is probably the result of the salt I use. Iodine is a little low - but not zero.

Here there are: ICP Results

Anyone see anything that is of concern and could cause melting?
 

jonbar1

Growing Out
View Badges
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
887
Reaction score
141
Location
Miamisburg, Ohio
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sounds like what I went though.

I had acquired a ton of new morphs with all the pandemic stimulus money and they were growing better than I'd ever had zoas grow before. I've collected zoas since 2006 so this was saying something! Then, one or two at a time they'd close and stay closed until they faded away.

I did the dips, added uv, started skimming, everything mentioned in this thread. Still, over the months my collection kept shrinking. I switched salt mixes, changed from AFR to 2 part dosing, changed my flow and many other things all in vain.

I thought a pathogen was spreading. I thought some contaminant in the water was bothering them. I thought they were starving for something. Even my protopalys were declining at the end and that had me confused. I tried to remedy a lot of things all while LPS and other corals still looked great.

But one thing I noticed while some were melting was that "unaffected" zoas stopped growing. I finally decided my tank had an abundance of something important before I added all the zoas that made them grow so fast and it was now gone and they were starving for it.

I began dosing Tropic Marin A and K since I had a bunch left over from my diy AFR. I dose the label directions daily. I also started dosing AcroPower the label dose daily.

Over some months that kept my remaining zoas from closing and eventually growing again. I haven't had any more melt since I began this regimen over a year ago and I just started buying more frags again and hoping for the best. Time will tell, but I'm at least optimistic enough to buy zoas again after swearing off them.
 

Edgecrusher28

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
247
Reaction score
126
Location
USA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sounds like what I went though.

I had acquired a ton of new morphs with all the pandemic stimulus money and they were growing better than I'd ever had zoas grow before. I've collected zoas since 2006 so this was saying something! Then, one or two at a time they'd close and stay closed until they faded away.

I did the dips, added uv, started skimming, everything mentioned in this thread. Still, over the months my collection kept shrinking. I switched salt mixes, changed from AFR to 2 part dosing, changed my flow and many other things all in vain.

I thought a pathogen was spreading. I thought some contaminant in the water was bothering them. I thought they were starving for something. Even my protopalys were declining at the end and that had me confused. I tried to remedy a lot of things all while LPS and other corals still looked great.

But one thing I noticed while some were melting was that "unaffected" zoas stopped growing. I finally decided my tank had an abundance of something important before I added all the zoas that made them grow so fast and it was now gone and they were starving for it.

I began dosing Tropic Marin A and K since I had a bunch left over from my diy AFR. I dose the label directions daily. I also started dosing AcroPower the label dose daily.

Over some months that kept my remaining zoas from closing and eventually growing again. I haven't had any more melt since I began this regimen over a year ago and I just started buying more frags again and hoping for the best. Time will tell, but I'm at least optimistic enough to buy zoas again after swearing off them.
Did you ever get ICP results during the downturn? I have a large Zoa tank that had/having similar issues but an oddly frustrating thing is. My ICP results are really decent minus manganese, which I can't seem to get detectable even though I've dosed over 70ml the last few months.
 

jonbar1

Growing Out
View Badges
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
887
Reaction score
141
Location
Miamisburg, Ohio
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I never did. I was doing a lot of massive water changes convinced a contaminant got into my tank more than a trace like iodine was depleted.

I'm still not sure if it was a disease running it's course or not, but I am leaning towards AcroPower being the hero of my tank.
 

Edgecrusher28

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
247
Reaction score
126
Location
USA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I never did. I was doing a lot of massive water changes convinced a contaminant got into my tank more than a trace like iodine was depleted.

I'm still not sure if it was a disease running it's course or not, but I am leaning towards AcroPower being the hero of my tank.
What do you think was in AcroPower that was the saviour? I have been dosing just about all trace elements and cant seem to turn the dang corner on these zoas.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
clhardy5

clhardy5

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
400
Reaction score
246
Location
Aurora, CO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Update....

I've been dosing iodine for about two weeks now. And no more zoas are melting, and 'might' be recovering. Some are starting to open, but others are still tight as a button....but don't seem to be disappearing at the rate they were before....

I also cut my skimmer use to 12 hours one, 12 hour off - as mentioned by another member.

I'll keep an eye on them, and see if they can actually turn it around
 

Edgecrusher28

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
247
Reaction score
126
Location
USA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Update....

I've been dosing iodine for about two weeks now. And no more zoas are melting, and 'might' be recovering. Some are starting to open, but others are still tight as a button....but don't seem to be disappearing at the rate they were before....

I also cut my skimmer use to 12 hours one, 12 hour off - as mentioned by another member.

I'll keep an eye on them, and see if they can actually turn it around
I was hoping Iodine was my problem too, given that all mt ICP test showed zero. However, I ended getting too high on iodine with dosing over a few months to the point levels were .6ppm and never seemed to see any true difference. I hope you have better results.
 
OP
OP
clhardy5

clhardy5

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
400
Reaction score
246
Location
Aurora, CO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I was hoping Iodine was my problem too, given that all mt ICP test showed zero. However, I ended getting too high on iodine with dosing over a few months to the point levels were .6ppm and never seemed to see any true difference. I hope you have better results.
Yeah...I'm sending off another ICP at the end of the month. I"m only dosing 1 drop of Lugols a day. Hopefully, it isn't overdosing the tank.
 

Wuzzo

Well-Known Member
View Badges
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Messages
861
Reaction score
802
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
This thread happened to pop up and I decided to go through it, and now I wonder if my problem with my zoas is iodine too. I’m fighting a slowly decreasing amount of dinos, and I assumed this was the reason some of my zoas are closed, however there’s also a good amount that are fine. Noticing that the larger polyped ones are typically doing better, but I have 15-20 morphs right now, most frags but some mini colonies. Since I have a lot and don’t really dose anything, I’m wondering if I should start with iodine, maybe do an ICP first?
 

jonbar1

Growing Out
View Badges
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
887
Reaction score
141
Location
Miamisburg, Ohio
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I remembered Jake Adams saying Julian tested a bunch of different aminos and when he found actually beneficial ones he bottled it as AcroPower. I am guessing they depleted a certain amino from the tank at this point.
 
OP
OP
clhardy5

clhardy5

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Jun 20, 2020
Messages
400
Reaction score
246
Location
Aurora, CO
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I remembered Jake Adams saying Julian tested a bunch of different aminos and when he found actually beneficial ones he bottled it as AcroPower. I am guessing they depleted a certain amino from the tank at this point.
I guess I'm confused.....are you saying that Acro power can help with melting zoas? Or Dinos? Who is it that is depleting an essential amino?
 

jonbar1

Growing Out
View Badges
Joined
Jul 21, 2006
Messages
887
Reaction score
141
Location
Miamisburg, Ohio
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The zoas. Never dealt with dinos during the zoa melting plague.

My conclusion was that after iodine, vitamin c, fungicides/bacteriacides, peroxide, switching salt, switching cal/alk dosing, adjusting temps, massive waterchanges, uv sterilizer, reef roids, AB+, and all the other things failed was that the cause of the stress on the zoas that made them close and never open up again was them literally starving for whatever is in AcroPower.

This is still just unscientific trial and error...but in the 17 years I've kept zoas the scientific reason for zoa melt on healthy colonies has yet to be officially uncovered as far as I have seen. If my current collection takes a turn then it's back to the drawing board. I just wanted to share what appears to be working after my most recent bout with it.
 

reefiniteasy

Check me out on IG!
View Badges
Joined
Jun 6, 2018
Messages
2,352
Reaction score
5,343
Location
Orlando, FL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Sounds like what I went though.

I had acquired a ton of new morphs with all the pandemic stimulus money and they were growing better than I'd ever had zoas grow before. I've collected zoas since 2006 so this was saying something! Then, one or two at a time they'd close and stay closed until they faded away.

I did the dips, added uv, started skimming, everything mentioned in this thread. Still, over the months my collection kept shrinking. I switched salt mixes, changed from AFR to 2 part dosing, changed my flow and many other things all in vain.

I thought a pathogen was spreading. I thought some contaminant in the water was bothering them. I thought they were starving for something. Even my protopalys were declining at the end and that had me confused. I tried to remedy a lot of things all while LPS and other corals still looked great.

But one thing I noticed while some were melting was that "unaffected" zoas stopped growing. I finally decided my tank had an abundance of something important before I added all the zoas that made them grow so fast and it was now gone and they were starving for it.

I began dosing Tropic Marin A and K since I had a bunch left over from my diy AFR. I dose the label directions daily. I also started dosing AcroPower the label dose daily.

Over some months that kept my remaining zoas from closing and eventually growing again. I haven't had any more melt since I began this regimen over a year ago and I just started buying more frags again and hoping for the best. Time will tell, but I'm at least optimistic enough to buy zoas again after swearing off them.

So I’ve had my second tank, a softy tank, running for almost 6 months. It’s all zoa frags that I saved from my main tank that was overrun with anemones. I’ve since added more frags as well. The majority of the frags were alive and well but very little new growth. I started dosing Tropic Marin A and K and what a difference. Everything is growing and growing well. New polyps on all zoas. I’ve been dosing it for almost 2 months now and I feel like it’s the secret ingredient. Most people say there is no reason to dose a softy tank and I’m so glad I started.
 

Edgecrusher28

Active Member
View Badges
Joined
Feb 22, 2022
Messages
247
Reaction score
126
Location
USA
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
The zoas. Never dealt with dinos during the zoa melting plague.

My conclusion was that after iodine, vitamin c, fungicides/bacteriacides, peroxide, switching salt, switching cal/alk dosing, adjusting temps, massive waterchanges, uv sterilizer, reef roids, AB+, and all the other things failed was that the cause of the stress on the zoas that made them close and never open up again was them literally starving for whatever is in AcroPower.

This is still just unscientific trial and error...but in the 17 years I've kept zoas the scientific reason for zoa melt on healthy colonies has yet to be officially uncovered as far as I have seen. If my current collection takes a turn then it's back to the drawing board. I just wanted to share what appears to be working after my most recent bout with it.
There clearly is some underlining issue that people have with their zoa collections that goes beyond the basics of proper water chemistry/common best or infections. I have ordered Acro power to try because at this point, what the heck is there to lose! Much like yourself I have now truly exhausted just about everything that I can think of to resolve these miserable looking Zoas, and even dialed in a majority of trace elements through ICP testing to include: Iodine, Manganese, Zinc, Iron, Vanadium, and Chromium; no improvements. Put AB+ on an auto-doser with no improvement, just an algae bloom. Purchased a PAR meter just to be 100% sure about lighting; no improvement, so on and so on.

Incredibly frustrating to put some much time, energy, and money into a tank to have such poor results. What's even worse or perhaps just is insult to injury is I have a few Acro frags in the same tank (different PAR in this section of the tank) that have good polyp extension and are growing at a reasonable rate; so signs of problems.


Below is a picture that provides a great example of two of my grow outs that looks like complete trash.
 

Attachments

  • Sad Zoas.png
    Sad Zoas.png
    967.4 KB · Views: 47

mfollen

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 14, 2013
Messages
2,142
Reaction score
1,736
Location
Chicago, IL
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Higher end zoa can truly be a love hate journey. I and other stick heads joke how acros are far easier than these nicer zoa which can melt down with little to point to.
The issue resolvement and chemically dialing in via ICP is definitely the common solution. But unfortunately the bacterial and even fungal side is still a bit of a black box and we don’t have all the answers we need.
 

littlebigreef

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Aug 25, 2016
Messages
1,718
Reaction score
1,978
Location
Batavia IL
Rating - 100%
12   0   0
I agree with @mfollen on the bacterial/protozan/fungal side (as my earlier posts attest to) but I also recognize that there's other factors at play here.

@jonbar1's Acropower observation (combined with the over-skimming discussion) is interesting. Perhaps we're pulling out too much good organic stuff? I know a few reefers that have long been dosing Aminos to great effect. looking forward to @Edgecrusher28 's results after dosing Acropower.

Wondering if any one is doing Reef Moonshiners program and what their experience might be with that? For those unfamiliar its an ICP based targeted dosing regime. From anecdotal evidence I've heard of it returning great results on mixed reefs, I've heard less about it in regards to zoas specifically.
 

Keeping it clean: Have you used a filter roller?

  • I currently use a filter roller.

    Votes: 63 34.4%
  • I don’t currently use a filter roller, but I have in the past.

    Votes: 6 3.3%
  • I have never used a filter roller, but I plan to in the future.

    Votes: 48 26.2%
  • I have never used a filter roller and have no plans to in the future.

    Votes: 58 31.7%
  • Other.

    Votes: 8 4.4%
Back
Top