Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[OrionN]

C'mon now. You can't have it both ways. Either I am a cheapskate or wealthy, though I could be a wealthy cheapskate. Hmm

"It is already expensive to spend 25-50 (or more) for small frags of some of the most beautiful SPS corals."

Bingo. You just made my argument for me. You say it scarcity and I say it's price manipulation. I will refer you to this article. https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-diamonds-are-so-expensive-2015-9

25-50 is the price I sell for a nice SPS when I go to Frag swab/sell locally in South Texas. I spend months ahead of time to prepare for these sales. At least 4-6 months in advance I frag out colonies put them on racks and take good care of them. On the day of the frag swab, I load these drive 2 hrs to San Antonio. Load all the water, set up my display and start selling.
I often get about 1000-1500 for each of these frag swab. It is really for the fun of it and to trade for corals that I don't have. Not enough money to make it worth while to make money.
25-50 is the minimal I would sell my coral for. I am not trying to push up the price or anything like that. Less than that and it is for a huge loss.

These are SPS about 1.5 inches in longest dimension or LPS 2-3 heads or about 1.5 inches.
Knowing how much effort it take to get these frags, I just don't consider it fair to try to get cheap cheap price for corals. It just put too much squeeze on other reefers.

You know, you cannot put coral in vault and lock it up so other people cannot get them. They will not be there when you open the vault. The other reason why your diamond example is so off base, is that diamonds do not grow or multiply like corals. The coral sellers do not have a monopoly on the source of corals. Once the rare corals sold, reefers who first bought them will grow, frag and sell them, to recoup their investment. The price goes down from there. Mark my word. A Homewrecker frag my be thousands of dollars now, in a few year, it will drop too less than 100.

Don't you see your logic is so full of holes.

 

[Ike]

I encourage you to actually read my posts prior to responding. Acro76 posted "we make thousands of frags a month and only lose a small percentage." So if they are creating an inventory on a monthly basis and not selling it they will soon be out of business. So I take them at their word, they make 1,000s of frags a month. Maybe it's only 2,000 or maybe it is as many as 7,000. I can only conjecture. I can tell you that if overhead is as high as many on this board says it is they cannot hold onto inventory for a long period. So traditionally a retail specialty business should turn inventory 3.5-4x a year. Let's say that online numbers are different and you only need a 3X turn to be profitable. That still means they are still selling a minimum of 24,000 pieces a year. If you google coral sales online the 1st 2 pages list 15 vendors. If we multiply that by 24,000 we come up with 360,000 corals per year being sold. So where is the shortage?

Oh right, Indonesia. Now let's consider who that ban actually hurts. First and least, the hobbyist. Yes, we may have to pay more but let's face it, that's a first world problem. So big deal.

Second and most importantly, the Indonesian workers who made their living harvesting corals. I read that 10,000 people lost their jobs, and there is a trickle down, for every one worker there are 2-3 people behind them supplying goods and services who see a diminished income. Is there any sort of lobbying effort to get the Indonesian government to remove or modify the ban? Beats me. But there should be.

Now, who gained from the Indonesian ban? The retailers. Because we are told that everything is scarce and we must now pay higher prices.

I swear if I were 20 years younger I'd find a partner to bankroll and start an aquafarm. Within 10 years I'd be able to disrupt the market.

Those numbers aren't based in reality for most if not every single coral vendor out there. Bold and grandiose claims are really easy to make when you have no intention of actually trying, nor any experience in the industry you claim you can disrupt.

 

[OrionN]

Why is Homewrecker so expensive?
Jason may get many wild corals and grow them. He have to worry about eliminate disease, parasites on the wild corals. Of these hundreds of corals, a few will be special. He will have to propagate these special corals and market and sell them when ever he have enough inventory. Once it leave his tanks, he will have all these competitors who will just grow them and don't have to come up with this coral to begin with.
He have to sell enough, at high enough price to make a reasonable living. I doubt very much that Jason Fox is in this for the money, or get wealthy from selling corals. I am happy to let him work and hunt for new beautiful corals. I will continue to work and earn a living in my profession. I enjoy the corals that AquaSD, Jason Fox and these coral professionals come up. I won't buy a Homewrecker from Jason, because even as well off as I am, I don't want to spend that much on a coral. In a few year, I am sure I will get one.

 

[mfrumkin]

Yeah, there are some shady vendors out there. Yes, I can assure you there has been some collusion. Anywhere there is money to be made this will happen.However, there are very rare corals in this hobby and supply and demand has very clearly dictated corals prices for years. When Tyree was growing out corals via reef farmers some of those corals were truly hard to come by. I've spent countless hours in wholesalers, and getting the good stuff is hard work and requires a tremendous amount of diligence and almost a sniper's mentality. I'm sure it's gotten far worse...

You keep making this Ferrari analogy that does nothing but make your point look less valid. Your mentality that an acro is an acro is no different from saying a car is a car. There are special corals that come into the industry and have high demand and are not affordable for most because the demand is far outpacing supply. Not a whole lot different from any number of other collectible things like a hot pair of collectible shoes or sports card. Something like Oregon Tort comes to mind as well, it's like a classic car that maintains it's value. Hell, it should probably even go up in value with how slow the thing grows. Pink Panther is another good example... If that coral were prettier people would be paying obscene amounts of money for it, as it is it's just very difficult to find even for well over $100. Then there are very pretty corals that are pretty common (Strawberry Shortcake is a good example), and there are corals that have a lot of hype that often don't stand the test of time and never really catch on. I've seen many thousands of corals, and there are several corals that have becomes staples in the hobby that I've still never seen a comparable wild colony of.

Walt Disney is now and will continue to be subjected to the rules of supply and demand. It and similar A. tenuis corals are a fading fad. Supply seems to be outpacing demand and no vendor is going to be able to keep that price artificially inflated. There are also much prettier A. tenuis IMO, which is . It's not selling for high prices like it used to, it grows fast, and they will be widely available for under $100 very soon as a result. This will be a $40-$50 frag before too long. Take a look at some preciously very expensive coral prices...

Red Dragon 2010ish was $250 and very difficult to come by. By 2013 it had dipped below $100 a frag and was fairly attainable since it was a fast grower and had been spread around in the hobby. Now you can get it for $15-$40 no problem and seemingly depending on how many people have had their colonies RTN. It still grows fast, it still likes to RTN, and it's still unlike any wild colony I've seen imported. It's pretty cool that you can get such a great coral for $20. I've seen thousands of wild colonies come through wholesalers and there are frags in the hobby that are truly rare (or at least not typically collected) corals that have become commonplace within the hobby. That's pretty amazing and is thanks to all of the hobbyists and businesses growing them out and it being such a universally liked and fast growing coral. You however seem to want to pretend that an acro is acro is an acro... It simply isn't the case!

I think you should be the one explaining to us why you would rather deplete a natural resource than purchase something captive grown and sustainable and grow your own colony...

"You keep making this Ferrari analogy that does nothing but make your point look less valid. Your mentality that an acro is an acro is no different from saying a car is a car."

Nothing could be further from the truth. I recognize that there are corals we have been told are so rare and special we must pay a premium. My question is: Is it really harder to grow a Walt Disney than a Bali Slimer? Or are we being told it is that much harder?

"I think you should be the one explaining to us why you would rather deplete a natural resource than purchase something captive grown and sustainable and grow your own colony."

Where did you get that idea from? I never posted that I'd "rather deplete a natural resource than purchase something captive grown and sustainable." I am happy to engage you in discussion, but not if you are going to lie about what I have said.

"grow your own colony."

I've grown many colonies. I'm growing some colonies right now. Why would you think otherwise? Besides, that is not what this thread is about. To reiterate, my original thread had nothing to do with aquaculture vs wild grown, frags vs. colonies, or what corals are best. I am not criticizing anyone who purchases frags for whatever reason, that is your choice, and if it brings you enjoyment, fulfillment, or peace of mind I am all for it.

This thread was about trying to understand the marketplace, what motivates people to behave in certain ways and fact vs. conventional wisdom and perception. What I have found most interesting is certain peoples reaction to this thread. Those who have been the most vocal in supporting the purchase of frags and at the same time mischaracterizing and criticizing me are almost defensive in their response.

 

[mfrumkin]

Those numbers aren't based in reality for most if not every single coral vendor out there. Bold and grandiose claims are really easy to make when you have no intention of actually trying, nor any experience in the industry you claim you can disrupt.

That's Cherry Corals quote and they are by their own admission a small company. Wonder how many frags the big vendors create each month.

As to disruption, (that is why I encourage you to read what I write not just make assumptions), my post said I would bankroll a partner. The assumption is that partner would be someone familiar with the industry. Otherwise I would be flushing my investment down the toilet.

"you claim you can disrupt." You are correct. I have no intention of doing this. As stated previously, I am 65 and I have no intention of building a new business. Maybe someone reading will seize the opportunity or maybe someone already has.

"Neither RedBox nor Netflix are even on the radar screen in terms of competition," Blockbuster CEO Jim Keyes told the Motley Fool in 2008. "It's more Wal-Mart and Apple."
His video-rental chain filed for bankruptcy in 2010. Today Netflix is worth $61.93 billion.

 

[Ike]

"You keep making this Ferrari analogy that does nothing but make your point look less valid. Your mentality that an acro is an acro is no different from saying a car is a car."

Nothing could be further from the truth. I recognize that there are corals we have been told are so rare and special we must pay a premium. My question is: Is it really harder to grow a Walt Disney than a Bali Slimer? Or are we being told it is that much harder?

"I think you should be the one explaining to us why you would rather deplete a natural resource than purchase something captive grown and sustainable and grow your own colony."

Where did you get that idea from? I never posted that I'd "rather deplete a natural resource than purchase something captive grown and sustainable." I am happy to engage you in discussion, but not if you are going to lie about what I have said.

"grow your own colony."

I've grown many colonies. I'm growing some colonies right now. Why would you think otherwise? Besides, that is not what this thread is about. To reiterate, my original thread had nothing to do with aquaculture vs wild grown, frags vs. colonies, or what corals are best. I am not criticizing anyone who purchases frags for whatever reason, that is your choice, and if it brings you enjoyment, fulfillment, or peace of mind I am all for it.

This thread was about trying to understand the marketplace, what motivates people to behave in certain ways and fact vs. conventional wisdom and perception. What I have found most interesting is certain peoples reaction to this thread. Those who have been the most vocal in supporting the purchase of frags and at the same time mischaracterizing and criticizing me are almost defensive in their response.

Walt Disney grows fast and is hardy from all I've seen. It will be a cheap and common coral before too long. It struck a nerve a nerve in the hobby and seems one of those artificially inflated corals. There are several other Acropora that will probably never be $20-$30 frags because they're uncommon and grow too slow.

I won't address the rest specifically other than to say that your original post here was calling buying frags "a suckers game". You may not be a troll, but some of your posts in this thread sure come across as troll like and I can guarantee that you mildly insulted a lot of people that read the thread.

Do you have any examples of stony coral colonies you've grown from a frag?

 

[OrionN]

Corals like Purple Monster Acro will never be inexpensive because it grow too slow and too delicate. On the other hand ASD Rainbow Milli, or Red Planet Acro is a very beautiful coral and price come down to just a common coral these day.

BTW, when I was selling corals, it is really difficult to guess what will sell a certain year. Still I have to set the coral tank on short notice, to show the coral at their best to sell. This is not easy. Small person that I am, it is back breaking business.

 

[Ike]

That's Cherry Corals quote and they are by their own admission a small company. Wonder how many frags the big vendors create each month.

As to disruption, (that is why I encourage you to read what I write not just make assumptions), my post said I would bankroll a partner. The assumption is that partner would be someone familiar with the industry. Otherwise I would be flushing my investment down the toilet.

"you claim you can disrupt." You are correct. I have no intention of doing this. As stated previously, I am 65 and I have no intention of building a new business. Maybe someone reading will seize the opportunity or maybe someone already has.

"Neither RedBox nor Netflix are even on the radar screen in terms of competition," Blockbuster CEO Jim Keyes told the Motley Fool in 2008. "It's more Wal-Mart and Apple."
His video-rental chain filed for bankruptcy in 2010. Today Netflix is worth $61.93 billion.

Cherry corals may be a small business, but they're likely one of the bigger and more successful coral vendors in the industry. I also highly doubt they frag thousands of corals every month unless they've expanded significantly since I was last there or have been stockpiling for some reason. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's hyperbole, maybe that's what they do to prep for a live sale.

I encourage you to not make posts where assumptions must be made to understand the point you're trying to make.

Lastly, are you honestly comparing multi-billion dollar digital media and entertainment companies to something as specialized as the coral and reef industry? It's such flawed logic and almost as bad as your Ferrari argument. I'm done arguing with you.

I hope your granddaughter loves the hobby and her aquarium. It's good of you to encourage a young person to be interested in the hobby and to help her out like that. Best of luck to both of you!

 

[NS Mike D]

You completely missed the point. Porsche cars are only status symbols to people that don’t have one or to Dbags. They look and drive like no other car on the road.

JF home wrecker looks like nothing else out there. People pay big money for corals that look like nothing else out there. No one is shelling out big money for drab corals just because of a name.

Porsche has a lot of competition in that market, including their own VW family with audi and lamborghini. The VW family spends a lot on marketing to keep them as status symbols. You see a lot of porsches sitting in stop an go traffic jams every day, so it can't be that great handling alone (as the prius flies by in the HOV lane).


Status is a real part of the high end of nearly every market, cars, homes, jewelry, wine, corals

 

[NS Mike D]

Cherry corals may be a small business, but they're likely one of the bigger and more successful coral vendors in the industry. I also highly doubt they frag thousands of corals every month unless they've expanded significantly since I was last there or have been stockpiling for some reason. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's hyperbole, maybe that's what they do to prep for a live sale.

I encourage you to not make posts where assumptions must be made to understand the point you're trying to make.

Lastly, are you honestly comparing multi-billion dollar digital media and entertainment companies to something as specialized as the coral and reef industry? It's such flawed logic and almost as bad as your Ferrari argument. I'm done arguing with you.

I hope your granddaughter loves the hobby and her aquarium. It's good of you to encourage a young person to be interested in the hobby and to help her out like that. Best of luck to both of you!

It is a specialized market with plenty of imperfections. While some might complain about the price of frags, the market still is affected by below costs sellers given the very high cost of running a frag operation.

You do see sellers working hard at branding high quality coral as they are, I suspect, very well that most corals will eventually be priced as commodities (ie just above cost) as efficiency works its way into the market place

 

[Ike]

It is a specialized market with plenty of imperfections. While some might complain about the price of frags, the market still is affected by below costs sellers given the very high cost of running a frag operation.

You do see sellers working hard at branding high quality coral as they are, I suspect, very well that most corals will eventually be priced as commodities (ie just above cost) as efficiency works its way into the market place

It's a truly brutal business in that regard. Trying to keep up with the trends in and latest thing in corals is nearly impossible for the LFS that isn't focused on coral. The supply of the nicest wild corals is limited to those with access to importers/wholesalers (basically the LA area), or a good connection. Most of the LFS's in the rest of the country get the scraps.

 

[Brian1f1]

So you corroborate that Acropora colonies at local fish stores were ubiquitous and inexpensive in the 90s and early 2000s?

I stand corrected.

I can take my schooling.

You apparently like to read into things. I didn’t say in the 90’s. I don’t recall the 90’s in so far as availability of coral. I also did not say that acro colonies were ubiquitous at all LFS. I said they were certainly available, and not particularly hard to obtain, nor particularly expensive, and that they could be kept with readily available tech.

 

[Ike]

You apparently like to read into things. I didn’t say in the 90’s. I don’t recall the 90’s in so far as availability of coral. I also did not say that acro colonies were ubiquitous at all LFS. I said they were certainly available, and not particularly hard to obtain, nor particularly expensive, and that they could be kept with readily available tech.

In the late 90's typical wholesale was $15-$22 per colony IIRC and they were sold as assorted acropora sm./med./lg. You had to be there when the shipment came in and get the bags that weren't cloudy. All colonies were either sold or dead by the end of the week. Mostly dead...

 

[lakai]

I do question the supply and demand issue.

I notice attitudes, opinions and explanations are varying based on how long someone has been in the hobby but consistent over all in threads like this.

Someone creates a thread about their dissatisfaction about the state of the hobby. I think there are a few different things are being discussed but ultimately revolves around the topic of coral pricing.

I find a little humor in this but Which one are you ?

• The "CAPITALISM!" guy within the first page of the thread.
• The "Supply and Demand" guy that follows shortly after.
• The "This is basic economics guy" who continues to lecture everyone throughout the entire thread.
• The "I only buy frags" guy
• The "Cuz indo is banned" guy
• The "Just wait until Aussie gets banned" guy.
• The "Reefing can be cheap" guy
• The "Posts random picture of their tank in heavy blue lighting" guy.
• The "I only buy $10 frags" but never mentions what and where they are getting frags for $10 guy.
• The "I will never pay more than $40 a frag" guy.
• The "You can find deals if you just look" guy.
• The "10 years ago" guy
• The "Zoas are $$$ per polyp" guy
• The "I won a $200 frag for $50 on ebay" but ended up spending $400 because of the shipping guy.
• The "I don't have time to sit around and wait for auctions" guy.
• The "I only buy used or from guys getting out of the hobby" guy.
• The "Newbs are suckers and deserve to get ripped off" guy.
• The "I'll just sell the frags after I grow it out" guy.

which one is the problem?


It seems as if reefing starts out as a hobby for everyone but for those who don't end up quitting, it inevitably becomes a hustle which in my opinion is a big factor that contributes to the cost of this hobby.

Let me know what you think and if I missed any.

 

[Hemmdog]

• The "Posts random picture of their tank in heavy blue lighting" guy.

LOL!! ;Hilarious

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

You apparently like to read into things. I didn’t say in the 90’s. I don’t recall the 90’s in so far as availability of coral. I also did not say that acro colonies were ubiquitous at all LFS. I said they were certainly available, and not particularly hard to obtain, nor particularly expensive, and that they could be kept with readily available tech.

The original poster stated Acropora colonies were cheap and at local fish stores 15+ years ago.

I had mini reefs in the early to mid 90s., so the would be in the “+” part of the assertion. I do recall the corals that were available in the 90s, I had them(we didn’t have the WWW* to look every thing up back then, so knowledge counted more than today)

This is essentially the topic of the thread.

When I got back into the reef hobby in the 2000, I too was shocked by the prevalence and expense of frags. Because I HAD bought inexpensive corals in the 90s.

This is what some people call the Mandela Effect. Steven Biko was murdered in a SA prison, not Nelson Mandela.

Hammers, softies, and leathers were cheap, unfragged, and ubiquitous in local fish stores 15+ years ago. The stuff you see in Julian Sprung’s tank. Or Sanjay Yoshi’s softie tank.

I do assume that in the brown and green acro only phase of the hobby that wild caught colonies were inexpensive. As has been shown by the LiveAquaria posted screenshot from a week ago or so, they still are.

But those are a long way away from Simon LeBon’s Galaxian ButtCrack of Explosive Pink Diarrhea frags going for $999 an inch.

1) Memory Virus like the Mandela Effect (Which I had myself)
2) Time frame is off
3) Different species of corals
4) Bland brown first generation Acropora
5) OP had way better LFSs than I had access to in the 90s and early 2000s
6) OP is thinking of Mailorder vendors and not LFSs at all


(*Yes, we did have the WWW back then, just not like today. You took your chances taking info from some rando reefer’s GeoCities page)

 

[OrionN]

You apparently like to read into things. I didn’t say in the 90’s. I don’t recall the 90’s in so far as availability of coral. I also did not say that acro colonies were ubiquitous at all LFS. I said they were certainly available, and not particularly hard to obtain, nor particularly expensive, and that they could be kept with readily available tech.

These are some pictures of my reef tank in Seattle, set up in 1996. I moved to Corpus Christi in 11/1999 and set up my tank in 2000. Below are pictures of a few corals from the tank in Seattle. Taken August 1999, just right before I took it down. SPS keeping were ubiquitous since late 1990's
This is the website a friend keep these pictures for me:
Even back them, especially back then, coral frags were much better than wild collect corals.
http://berlinmethod.com/minhn/

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

 

[VR28man]

In the late 90's typical wholesale was $15-$22 per colony IIRC and they were sold as assorted acropora sm./med./lg. You had to be there when the shipment came in and get the bags that weren't cloudy. All colonies were either sold or dead by the end of the week. Mostly dead...

Thanks, this is good perspective.

This is NOT what we want, I think..........

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Porsche has a lot of competition in that market, including their own VW family with audi and lamborghini. The VW family spends a lot on marketing to keep them as status symbols. You see a lot of porsches sitting in stop an go traffic jams every day, so it can't be that great handling alone (as the prius flies by in the HOV lane).


Status is a real part of the high end of nearly every market, cars, homes, jewelry, wine, corals

When’s the last time you saw a Porsche commercial? When’s the last time you ever saw Porsche advertise?

Even in stop go traffic, they drive like nothing else. Most owners will tell you that.

Edit: Where do you live that you see a lot of Porsche’s at all?

This status (Porsche or some Acro) thing is merely a social construct.