Why Do We Continue To Buy Frags?

[mfrumkin]

It is not my opinion.

It is common sense.

Talk to anybody that knows anything about Coral and they will back me up.

Your the one that made the crazy claim that Frags have a Higher Death Rate than Colonies. (P.S. where is your Scientific Backing since you asked me)?

I am merely showing you how that claim can proven wrong.

If you don't have the time or the patience then why are you posting all this and fighting with us?

A. It is not common sense, it is your opinion based on your limited observations.

B. Really? Everybody backs you up? Even on this thread there are people who don't agree with you.

C. And I stand by that in a large tank. No, I don't have scientific data. There may be some out there, but I haven't found it. So my opinion is based on the same anecdotal evidence as yours.

D. All you have shown is that you disagree. That's fine. You are welcome to disagree. Just try to do it without insulting or belittling others. Before you post, think about whether you would say it in person or even over the phone.

E. Who is us? You are the only one who continues to insist that YOU have the TRUTH and everyone else is wrong. Please, actually read my posts BEFORE responding. I buy frags and I will continue to buy frags. What I will not do is allow the equivalent of Coral OPEC to persuade me that they can tick on my leg and have me believe it is raining.

 

[mfrumkin]

Wild Acro Colony - 99 Percent Chance of Dying
Frag of Green Slimer Acro Tank Raised - 99 Percent Chance of Living (Like Seriously you would have to want this Coral to Die to have it Die - It is Bulletproof)

Yeah, Please tell me Again How Colonies do Better than Frags?

That is the Perfect Example here of why you are Wrong.

I am willing to run an experiment. Send me a list of 6-7 readily available acros that you think are 99% bulletproof and I will buy them. I will put them in my tank and keep you informed of my tank parameters and how they are growing. If after 3mos, 6 mos, and a year at least 80% of them are thriving, I will stand corrected and admit I am wrong.

 

[OrionN]

Mmmnmm

I am willing to run an experiment. Send me a list of 6-7 readily available acros that you think are 99% bulletproof and I will buy them. I will put them in my tank and keep you informed of my tank parameters and how they are growing. If after 3mos, 6 mos, and a year at least 80% of them are thriving, I will stand corrected and admit I am wrong.

This does not proof anything and is a waste of time. All it does is to to show what YOU can do.
A reasonable study would be tracking WC and captive frags/colonies of various Reefers over a period of time.
It is common sense that captive frags do better. What you believe is common sense is absolutely not.

 

[mfrumkin]

Mmmnmm

This does not proof anything and is a waste of time. All it does is to to show what YOU can do.
A reasonable study would be tracking WC and captive frags/colonies of various Reefers over a period of time.
It is common sense that captive frags do better. What you believe is common sense is absolutely not.

Why is it common sense that captive frags do better than larger captive corals. Again, I am not comparing aquaculture vs. mariculture vs. wild caught. Please explain why a zoa 3 polyp frag will do better than my 50+ polyp frag also tank raised of the same species. You and others keep claiming frags are healthier but no one can say why?

My offer was in direct response to that Reef Guy stating that there are acros that are 99% bulletproof and implying that I am too incompetent to grow them. It is not a waste of time because if that Reef Guy is right and I am wrong I will have some beautiful acros in my tank in the next year. I will also admit that I am wrong, something nobody on this forum ever does.

 

[OrionN]

Captive grown frags will do just as well if not better than larger captive raise corals. Certainly transport a small frag is a lot easier than large colonies. But this is not what we are talking about.

You want to buy large colonies for cheap. It is just not possible if you want to buy captive large colonies. Corals take time to grow. The larger the corals, the more expensive it is, of course. I you want a 100 polyps colonies, any sensible seller will sell them for at least 10X the price of a 10 polyps frag of the same species. If the colony is especially beautiful one, where there are plenty of people who want to buy 1 polyp because they don't have money, then of course a 100 polyps colony will cost more than 100X the one polyp frag, perhaps much more than 100X.

The only way any reefer can get cheap large colonies, is wild caught colonies.

 

[mfrumkin]

I

Captive grown frags will do just as well if not better than larger captive raise corals. Certainly transport a small frag is a lot easier than large colonies. But this is not what we are talking about.

You want to buy large colonies for cheap. His is just not possible if you want to buy captive large colonies. Corals take time to grow. The larger the corals, the more expensive it is, of course. I you want a 100 polyps colonies, any sensible seller will sell them for at least 10X the price of a 10 polyps frag of the same species. If the colony is especially beautiful one, where there are plenty of perople who want to buy 1 polyp because they don't have money, then of course a 100 polyps colony will cost more than 100X the one polyp frag, perhaps much more than 100X.

The only way any reefer can get cheap large colonies, is wild caught colonies.

I don't know why you think I want to buy large corals for cheap. I don't think I ever said that.

 

[Eve]

...Every post you make is so harsh. Why so rude all the time?

I was going to say the same, so rude. There are better ways to say things.

 

[OrionN]

I guess you are a lot wealthier than most reefers. It is already expensive to spend 25-50 (or more) for small frags of some of the most beautiful SPS corals. Most of us cannot sink several thousand on one. I rather spend 1000.00 on 30 corals frags then 2000 on 2 to 4 colonies of tank raise large coral colonies.
Growing the coral in our tank, it looks a lot more natural than trying to fit a large colonies on the rock structure.
It took me 3 years to grow a Red Goniopora from .5X.5 inch, 20 polyps or so coral frag to a 3X3X3 inches colonies. I would not sell this colony for 500.00. If you really want to get a beautiful, captive raise Goniopora this size you got to pay big bucks for it because it take a lot of time, a lot of expensive real estates and the supports, water change, electricity to grow these. If you want a large Goniopora colony, there is not a lot of choice except getting a wild collect Goniopora (for most of us, except for you of course)
In addition, we all got to make a living. If someone make it their profession to grow corals to make a living, you just got to allow them to "make a living". If you don't want to buy small, by all mean, sink a lot of money and get large captive raise colony. Even with some of the fastest growing SPS, to get a reasonable colony of about 3X3 inches, it is going to take a year or two at optimal condition, which mean a lot of money into support the tank.

 

[mfrumkin]

I was going to say the same, so rude. There are better ways to say things.

In what way have I been rude? Certainly not my intention.

 

[OrionN]

.........
Basic retail economics: Let's assume a retail vendor frags 3,000 pieces a month that equals 12,000 pieces a quarter. They have to turn their inventory 4 times a year. At an average sales price of let's say $40 that is $480,000 a quarter, close to $2,000,000 a year. .......

This is totally out of wack. There is no vendor who sell 3,000 frag a month. If they frag 3000 frag a month, they will just throw away most of them and take a huge loss. Maybe this is why your view on this is so different than a lot of people here. There isn't that many reefer out there. Also, when something first come out, there is a demand from wealthy reefers who pay a huge amount for something new. Once the coral or fish have been propagated for a while, the price will drastically down due to just every day reefer who view keeping as a hobby, and will sell them for a lot cheaper.
Take a Lighting Maroon clown. I don't know how many thousand of dollars for that first wild caught one. The first deformed maroon clowns sold for many thousand of dollars, (was it 6000 or 15000?) but now we can get one for 30.00 at Petco.

 

[Eve]

In what way have I been rude? Certainly not my intention.

Lol No it was not you! It was someone else. He quoted another person who was rude.

 

[NeutronMan]

You got to admit, $600 frags don’t look like $20 frags. :) Not a lot looks like a JF home wrecker.

My tank is small and real estate is expensive. If I can only have space for 5-6 acros, they won’t be filled with brown/green common stuff.

You should always buy the best that you can afford. I could get by with a cheap car, but I work hard and earn more than most. I chose to drive a Porsche because I can afford it and nothing else drives like one, or looks like one. Porsche will continue to sell their cars at high prices because people like me will continue to pay them. That’s how capitalism goes. Animal kingdom is no different. The strong survive because they eat the weak.

 

[jose hernandez]

I hate frags but that is what this hobby has come to I’ve been in the hobby 12+ years I would go and buy a zoa colony 100+ plus heads for less than $60 bucks now people are charging $5 per head it’s crazy what this hobby has come to

 

[Hermie]

You got to admit, $600 frags don’t look like $20 frags. :) Not a lot looks like a JF home wrecker.

My tank is small and real estate is expensive. If I can only have space for 5-6 acros, they won’t be filled with brown/green common stuff.

You should always buy the best that you can afford. I could get by with a cheap car, but I work hard and earn more than most. I chose to drive a Porsche because I can afford it and nothing else drives like one, or looks like one. Porsche will continue to sell their cars at high prices because people like me will continue to pay them. That’s how capitalism goes. Animal kingdom is no different. The strong survive because they eat the weak.

Acros as a status symbol... :rolleyes:

hahahahahahahaha

 

[NeutronMan]

I hate frags but that is what this hobby has come to I’ve been in the hobby 12+ years I would go and buy a zoa colony 100+ plus heads for less than $60 bucks now people are charging $5 per head it’s crazy what this hobby has come to

Prices also come down a lot. Remember Rastas? They used to sell for $20pp. Now they are like $5pp. My Rasta colony that I have now could have made a mortgage payment for me.

 

[NeutronMan]

Acros as a status symbol... :rolleyes:

hahahahahahahaha

You completely missed the point. Porsche cars are only status symbols to people that don’t have one or to Dbags. They look and drive like no other car on the road.

JF home wrecker looks like nothing else out there. People pay big money for corals that look like nothing else out there. No one is shelling out big money for drab corals just because of a name.

 

[Hemmdog]

You completely missed the point. Porsche cars are only status symbols to people that don’t have one or to Dbags. They look and drive like no other car on the road.

JF home wrecker looks like nothing else out there. People pay big money for corals that look like nothing else out there. No one is shelling out big money for drab corals just because of a name.

+1

 

[HCl+NaHO=]

There were plenty of retailers and tech in the first half of the 00’s... Even online, I remember Reefer Madness had almost nothing but acro colonies. I had seaswirls, a calcium reactor, halides and PC lights, a chiller by 2001... by 2005 plenty of folks did. Give me a break.

So you corroborate that Acropora colonies at local fish stores were ubiquitous and inexpensive in the 90s and early 2000s?

I stand corrected.

I can take my schooling.

 

[NeutronMan]

So you corroborate that Acropora colonies at local fish stores were ubiquitous and inexpensive in the 90s and early 2000s?

I stand corrected.

I can take my schooling.

Equals satwater?

 

[mfrumkin]

I guess you are a lot wealthier than most reefers. It is already expensive to spend 25-50 (or more) for small frags of some of the most beautiful SPS corals. Most of us cannot sink several thousand on one. I rather spend 1000.00 on 30 corals frags then 2000 on 2 to 4 colonies of tank raise large coral colonies.
Growing the coral in our tank, it looks a lot more natural than trying to fit a large colonies on the rock structure.
It took me 3 years to grow a Red Goniopora from .5X.5 inch, 20 polyps or so coral frag to a 3X3X3 inches colonies. I would not sell this colony for 500.00. If you really want to get a beautiful, captive raise Goniopora this size you got to pay big bucks for it because it take a lot of time, a lot of expensive real estates and the supports, water change, electricity to grow these. If you want a large Goniopora colony, there is not a lot of choice except getting a wild collect Goniopora (for most of us, except for you of course)
In addition, we all got to make a living. If someone make it their profession to grow corals to make a living, you just got to allow them to "make a living". If you don't want to buy small, by all mean, sink a lot of money and get large captive raise colony. Even with some of the fastest growing SPS, to get a reasonable colony of about 3X3 inches, it is going to take a year or two at optimal condition, which mean a lot of money into support the tank.

C'mon now. You can't have it both ways. Either I am a cheapskate or wealthy, though I could be a wealthy cheapskate. Hmm

"It is already expensive to spend 25-50 (or more) for small frags of some of the most beautiful SPS corals."

Bingo. You just made my argument for me. You say it scarcity and I say it's price manipulation. I will refer you to this article. https://www.businessinsider.com/heres-why-diamonds-are-so-expensive-2015-9