A few random thoughts on the many interesting points on this thread.
It seems to me that an LFS has to diversify, and/or do setup and maintenance, and if big enough do mail order. My favorite LFS does half Koi and half reef; they do koi pond setup and maintenance which IMO is probably the biggest money in the retail ornamental fish business. My second favorite has a much smaller, but still quality tanks, and makes the most money from installs and maintenance. My closest LFS has a decent size store (about the same size as my favorite LFS) and pushes their setup and maintenance. (I blow hot and cold on their tanks and maintenance). We also have a new LFS in the past year who has a decent size frag setup (maybe half the size of aquaSD in San Diego; a surprisingly small facility IMO for its online presence and for its mail order volume); however I'm not terribly hot on their business practices and prices. Nevertheless, this last one also has a good client base (he was private for many years) and I'm sure eventually will be doing mail order.
I've only had like 1-2 frags die on me for "no reason"; I've lost quite a few due either to the wrong kind of light or due to bad management while I'm gone for like 2-3 weeks. Once you get them going and have them well cared for, you will have too many.
As far as bans, we have no one to blame but ourselves. John Tullock's book "The Natural Reef Aquarium" from like 15 years ago is the best book on reefkeeping (still mostly relevant, though some techiques like using two part and LEDs are now more popular than back then). Its discussion on sustainability (net caught or nothing) and legislation could be cut and pasted to today, even though the state of many local reefs supposedly is more dire. So all this stuff is an old hat. At the same time, there is legislation; I'm told the DLNR in Hawaii essentially bans all coral importing and local SPS collection and keeping; a similar agency in Florida bans the sale and private collection of local SPS and some categories of soft coral (Gorgonia ventalina, a really pretty and common gorgonian).
IMO, there is no environmental reason that common local SPS' in either jurisdiction from the local restoration farms could not be sold to earn side money for those farms. (besides the fact that those SPS', like most SPS', are not terribly colorful, and I would be one of the few people in the world that wants a Porites lobata or Pocillopora eydouxi). Same thing would go for limited and well controlled private collection along the lines of fishing or hunting regulations: go pay for a tag for a coral or fish of limited size you want to collect for your aquarium, get it, declare it to the DLNR, and go on your way.
To the OP, no one has to pay more than $20 for a frag of any category of coral, IME, from zoas to acros. I also will refuse to pay more than $50 for a frag under any condition, unless I specifically order such athing. Most of my frags come from local reefers through my local club. Sometimes the best people to get them from are people who run their own private mini LFS's out of their own frag tanks. (quality varies; some are OK, some are awesome, as good as the best LFS). At the same time, all of the LFS' around here have $30, $20, $10, even $5 frag racks (the latter being basically what some might call "trash zoas", tiny LPS, birdsnests and monti plates). The online coral farms are good too; @PacificEastAquaculture will ship to me and anyone else in the same UPS zone for $20. [which I don't count in the cost of the frag]
[as an aside, under those conditions it's quick and easy to spend your way into a situation where you're overloaded with frags]
This acro was a $10 frag from the closest LFS reference above. Three months ago, it was a tiny bit glued onto the plug. [emoji57] It has not grown vertically as much as I'd like, bit it's encrusted, thickened its encrustation, and has definitely gotten thicker. (and yes,this pic was a reminder that I need to brush off some algae. [emoji1] )
If you don't live in a major metropolis, you honestly just have to face the fact either you have to be very selective or you have to mail order (and pay the $40 shipping fee on top of whatever you buy. IMO, this is a deterrent to impulse buying [emoji1] ). I grew up in Real America ("civilization" = you live in 30 minutes drive of a grocer and dollar store; "town" = +wal mart; "city" = + target, home depot, petco; "metropolis" = +costco, Kohls, and the other big box stores and major chain restaurants) too; this is just part of life.
I know a few LFS' that do sell colonies on the $100+ side; the colonies definitely sit for a while but they eventually disappear. (even the 7" dragon eye for $200 and the 7 inch red planet for $800! though, the latter was only in OK condition the second time I saw it; it might have bleached and now in the live rock tank). Given the number of tank breakdowns they get in, I'd imagine many of the "colonies" were from the broken down tanks.
As a side bar, this brings me to a conundrum: I am not into fragging for trade or local sale, but I will inevitably eventually need to get rid of "colony" sized pieces I don't need and have no idea how to market them if people really just want frags.
e.g.: @madweazl very generously gave me this dream colony a few months ago:
And on something like that stuff easily breaks off; a decent size section broke off like a month ago and now it's doubled in size:
It would easily be a $40-80 at the LFS'; I want to keep it longer and if I do sell it (which I probably will in like a year because of space) I have no idea how I will sell it unless i just functionally give it away (the way @madweazl basically did. But giving away a small colony essentially cheapens its value, unlike the big colony he gave me which is awesome no matter what. I may ask like half market price, and ask the buyer to show me they donated the sale price to the Coral Restoration Foundation in Florida rather than paypal. In fact, I probably should practice what I preach first, since I did get a dream colony..... [emoji1] [emoji1] )
It seems to me that an LFS has to diversify, and/or do setup and maintenance, and if big enough do mail order. My favorite LFS does half Koi and half reef; they do koi pond setup and maintenance which IMO is probably the biggest money in the retail ornamental fish business. My second favorite has a much smaller, but still quality tanks, and makes the most money from installs and maintenance. My closest LFS has a decent size store (about the same size as my favorite LFS) and pushes their setup and maintenance. (I blow hot and cold on their tanks and maintenance). We also have a new LFS in the past year who has a decent size frag setup (maybe half the size of aquaSD in San Diego; a surprisingly small facility IMO for its online presence and for its mail order volume); however I'm not terribly hot on their business practices and prices. Nevertheless, this last one also has a good client base (he was private for many years) and I'm sure eventually will be doing mail order.
I've only had like 1-2 frags die on me for "no reason"; I've lost quite a few due either to the wrong kind of light or due to bad management while I'm gone for like 2-3 weeks. Once you get them going and have them well cared for, you will have too many.
As far as bans, we have no one to blame but ourselves. John Tullock's book "The Natural Reef Aquarium" from like 15 years ago is the best book on reefkeeping (still mostly relevant, though some techiques like using two part and LEDs are now more popular than back then). Its discussion on sustainability (net caught or nothing) and legislation could be cut and pasted to today, even though the state of many local reefs supposedly is more dire. So all this stuff is an old hat. At the same time, there is legislation; I'm told the DLNR in Hawaii essentially bans all coral importing and local SPS collection and keeping; a similar agency in Florida bans the sale and private collection of local SPS and some categories of soft coral (Gorgonia ventalina, a really pretty and common gorgonian).
IMO, there is no environmental reason that common local SPS' in either jurisdiction from the local restoration farms could not be sold to earn side money for those farms. (besides the fact that those SPS', like most SPS', are not terribly colorful, and I would be one of the few people in the world that wants a Porites lobata or Pocillopora eydouxi). Same thing would go for limited and well controlled private collection along the lines of fishing or hunting regulations: go pay for a tag for a coral or fish of limited size you want to collect for your aquarium, get it, declare it to the DLNR, and go on your way.
To the OP, no one has to pay more than $20 for a frag of any category of coral, IME, from zoas to acros. I also will refuse to pay more than $50 for a frag under any condition, unless I specifically order such athing. Most of my frags come from local reefers through my local club. Sometimes the best people to get them from are people who run their own private mini LFS's out of their own frag tanks. (quality varies; some are OK, some are awesome, as good as the best LFS). At the same time, all of the LFS' around here have $30, $20, $10, even $5 frag racks (the latter being basically what some might call "trash zoas", tiny LPS, birdsnests and monti plates). The online coral farms are good too; @PacificEastAquaculture will ship to me and anyone else in the same UPS zone for $20. [which I don't count in the cost of the frag]
[as an aside, under those conditions it's quick and easy to spend your way into a situation where you're overloaded with frags]
This acro was a $10 frag from the closest LFS reference above. Three months ago, it was a tiny bit glued onto the plug. [emoji57] It has not grown vertically as much as I'd like, bit it's encrusted, thickened its encrustation, and has definitely gotten thicker. (and yes,this pic was a reminder that I need to brush off some algae. [emoji1] )
If you don't live in a major metropolis, you honestly just have to face the fact either you have to be very selective or you have to mail order (and pay the $40 shipping fee on top of whatever you buy. IMO, this is a deterrent to impulse buying [emoji1] ). I grew up in Real America ("civilization" = you live in 30 minutes drive of a grocer and dollar store; "town" = +wal mart; "city" = + target, home depot, petco; "metropolis" = +costco, Kohls, and the other big box stores and major chain restaurants) too; this is just part of life.
I know a few LFS' that do sell colonies on the $100+ side; the colonies definitely sit for a while but they eventually disappear. (even the 7" dragon eye for $200 and the 7 inch red planet for $800! though, the latter was only in OK condition the second time I saw it; it might have bleached and now in the live rock tank). Given the number of tank breakdowns they get in, I'd imagine many of the "colonies" were from the broken down tanks.
As a side bar, this brings me to a conundrum: I am not into fragging for trade or local sale, but I will inevitably eventually need to get rid of "colony" sized pieces I don't need and have no idea how to market them if people really just want frags.
e.g.: @madweazl very generously gave me this dream colony a few months ago:
And on something like that stuff easily breaks off; a decent size section broke off like a month ago and now it's doubled in size:
It would easily be a $40-80 at the LFS'; I want to keep it longer and if I do sell it (which I probably will in like a year because of space) I have no idea how I will sell it unless i just functionally give it away (the way @madweazl basically did. But giving away a small colony essentially cheapens its value, unlike the big colony he gave me which is awesome no matter what. I may ask like half market price, and ask the buyer to show me they donated the sale price to the Coral Restoration Foundation in Florida rather than paypal. In fact, I probably should practice what I preach first, since I did get a dream colony..... [emoji1] [emoji1] )
Last edited:
