Why do you circulate dry rock in salt water?

[texdoc77]

This question can get a bit confusing but let me try to be as clear as possible. I am NOT asking if I should cycle my rock for the purpose of bacteria growth. I am NOT asking if I should "cure" old dry rock to get rid of organics on the rock. I AM asking why do I need to let my perfectly good brand new never been in a tank dry MacroRocks in circulate in salt water? What is it about the NaCl that is improtant? I went to the MacroRock site and they do recommend to circulate the rock in salt water for several weeks. But why not fresh water?

Thanks in advance,

SC

 

[redfishbluefish]

The reason is because what is in that pretty dry dead rock from Marco are organics from when it was in the water. So yes, you need to cure that rock.....saltwater and a powerhead is what is minimally needed....no heat if done in a place that is "room" temperature.

 

[tehmadreefer]

Do you want algae issues or no?

 

[texdoc77]

Do you want algae issues or no?

Just don't. Asking if I want algae issues is missing the point. One of the biggest issues on any forum is not being clear. This causes lots of confusion for everyone. If I look like an idiot trying to clarify something fine, I don't care. What I am trying to figure out is exactly what organic compounds are still in the rock, and how salt water helps to remove those.

 

[texdoc77]

The reason is because what is in that pretty dry dead rock from Marco are organics from when it was in the water. So yes, you need to cure that rock.....saltwater and a powerhead is what is minimally needed....no heat if done in a place that is "room" temperature.

Would it be presumptuous to assume phosphate is the most concerning organic compound or are there others?

 

[Crabby48]

I will be surprised if you get a different answer then you all ready know.
Marco rocks that I have used and many others is clean of organics. I aloud the rock to cycle with the tank. I have added Marco rocks to a tank with no issues. I’m sure there is a chance of organics can be in some of the rock and cause issue but seems very unlikely.

I would cycle the rock in saltwater and bacteria if adding a lot to established tank to play it safe from a mini cycle

 

[ScottB]

The reason is because what is in that pretty dry dead rock from Marco are organics from when it was in the water. So yes, you need to cure that rock.....saltwater and a powerhead is what is minimally needed....no heat if done in a place that is "room" temperature.

So I cure it to remove PO4? Assuming so, should we not also be testing the water & potentially running GFO to strip it out? And then perhaps toss in some bacteria once it is "clean" enough?

 

[cvrle1]

Would it be presumptuous to assume phosphate is the most concerning organic compound or are there others?

Yes, Phosphate leaching from dead rock is most concerning, and why you do what you asked in op.

So I cure it to remove PO4? Assuming so, should we not also be testing the water & potentially running GFO to strip it out? And then perhaps toss in some bacteria once it is "clean" enough?

Yes, you should be water testing. Some run GFO, some dont, personal choice. Bacteria is tossed when rock is ready to be cycled, after it has been cured properly.

 

[IKD]

I went to the vendor (Marco Rocks)? They have an FAQ. Here is responses they post for their product

Do I Need To Rinse The Rock Before Using It?
Although not necessary, most people find it beneficial to lightly rinse the dust off under running water


Cooked, Cycled, Cured, Baked... What Does It All Mean?
We often get asked if our rock is “cooked, cycled, cured, baked,” etc.
Here’s the full low-down on what these terms mean and a little background history on why MarcoRocks is the best choice in aqua-scaping for reef aquaria.
All rocks are not created equal! In fact, some are created by man and some by mother nature. MarcoRocks are 100% made by good ol mother earth. In fact much of southern florida as we know it is sitting on ancient coral reefs. This old reef, now only a mass of limestone skeleton, is the stuff of dreams for a modern day aqua-scaper. Once carefully unearthed and freed of sediment, it takes a shape not unlike those of regularly imported live rock BUT with none of the risks like pests, nasty die-off, while preserving our beautiful living reefs. Our rock is also carefully sourced to be free of anything that might effect its purity. This is one of best reasons to choose MarcoRocks.
Being a natural product, each batch or rock can vary somewhat from the last one. This is where our skilled team of experienced rock handlers come into play. MarcoRocks takes pride in selecting only the best raw material that will one day find their way into people’s home aquariums, and processing them in an environmentally friendly way.
Cycling- Since MarcoRocks is a dry, natural product from a non-living marine environment one would certainly need to give it some time to become biologically alive. Bacteria can be introduced to the system in many ways. The easiest and quickest is by dosing the bacteria into the system via a bottle. Many reputable brands are on the market that cater to this need. You can also seed a tank by introducing any surface area from another living, mature reef system. This includes bacteria contained on rocks, filter sponges, etc. will rapidly seed these porous rocks turning it quickly into a living substrate. Cycling time varies from system to system and regular testing of the nitrogen cycle (ammonia, nitrite and nitrate) will determine when the tank is ready for serious stocking.
Curing- This refers to a process in which something would go from an unsafe state to a “ready to use” state. Since our rock is already safe to use out of the box, the curing word need not be something of concern. This term would apply to those man-made concrete rock-scapes seen throughout the industry. If not thoroughly “cured”, these other types of rocks can leach chemicals into the aquarium and become harmful to your coral and/or fish.
Cooked- This one is a bit more out in left field and doesn’t fit neatly into the aquarium language. I suppose one could cook something to cure it, (add heat to it) to speed the curing process. Again, this is not something that concerns us since there is nothing to cook or cure out of MarcoRocks. It is 100% reef safe right out of the box.
As always, for beginners we recommend going slow with any marine system. Taking your time, understanding the fundamentals, and allow a beautiful natural system develop organically. This really is the best and most forgiving way to setup a marine system. But with experience, expert level hobbyists can use some shortcuts, times can be shortened and systems can be ready sooner

 

[phillygeeks]

Phosphates and silicates would be the primary concern as was mentioned. If you do this I'm not sure the "curing" part actually requires salt water. This may be more if you are starting to cycle at the same time. However, I can't confidently say there is no benefit to curing with salt over fresh water

 

[ScottB]

OK. Unless someone else wants to share an experience/experiment, I will play guinea pig. I just built a structure out of Marco rock. About 30 chunks are glued together here to a base rock that is suspended on 1/2 acrylic rods. Not a great pic, but there are 16 landing pads for gluing SPS and LPS. Many beers went into this creation. I think I have found my true calling finally

I will drop it in vat, circulate/salt/heat/dark and Hanna test the water after a week or so for PO4 and let you know what I find. You all give me a bunch of Like & Loves so I can feel vastly but temporarily more popular. Deal?

 

[rossco]

The reason I would use salt water is the bacteria that i want colonizing the rock to be salt water bacteria. Just makes sense to me, nothing scientific to back it up. .

Personally, I just use water change water from my display when curing/seeding rock, known good bacteria are in the water and for the first few water changes I also squeeze used filter socks over the tub to add more bacteria.

 

[mtfish]

You are using dead rock so it does not matter if you use salt water or fresh water. Lanthanum chloride will remove phosphates whether it is fresh or salt water. You asked me not to tell you why to use salt water, but I guess I will anyways. The bacteria that lives in salt water is different then the ones that live in fresh water. Of course, you have to add some of that good bacteria by either adding some live rock or sand; dead shrimp or clam, etc. from a salt water environment.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I think several people are missing the point of your question, but in my opinion the point is to start building up beneficial bacteria colonies while you are waiting for the old organics to leach out and break down. Otherwise, you can soak the rock in fresh water for however long to remove and break down organics but then you will just have to start over with developing long term beneficial bacteria once you move it to salt water.

 

[RyanSweet]

In my personal experience using Marco dry rock -
I used to soak in fresh water but noticed that I would have small algae issues (usually diatoms, hair algae, and sometimes cyano bacteria blooms) when moving large amounts into displays. When using salt water instead I noticed much less, or a much shorter recovery time.
From this, my guess was that the bacteria grown in fresh water doesn’t survive in salt water and caused organic die-off, giving nuisance algae’s/bacteria the nutrient levels needed to grow. While soaking in salt water provided the proper bacterial growth to sustain healthy levels once moved into the display. After talking with a few biologist friends and doing some microscope “investigating” this was proven true.
That said, the issues I noticed with soaking in fresh compared to salt water were minimal when compared to using uncured rock, or rocks that had a lot of die-off from being “live” before.

Hope that helps answer your question. If not please reach out with any questions.

 

[texdoc77]

I love all this action and I appreciate all the responses! OK let me summarize some of the statements that I feel were most pertinent to what I am trying to figure out.

1. Macro Rock, just like dry live rock will have organics, maybe not as many but still some.
2. The organics in question are things like phosphate and silicates, among others, but for the sake of salt water aquariums the ones we are most concerned with (algae and diatoms).
3. Experiential results tell us salt water curing is helpful for this.

Let us agree for the sake of argument that the above is true. What is it about NaCl that helps remove this from the rock? Is there a chemical reaction? Does it act like a detergent or soap?

 

[RyanSweet]

I love all this action and I appreciate all the responses! OK let me summarize some of the statements that I feel were most pertinent to what I am trying to figure out.

1. Macro Rock, just like dry live rock will have organics, maybe not as many but still some.
2. The organics in question are things like phosphate and silicates, among others, but for the sake of salt water aquariums the ones we are most concerned with (algae and diatoms).
3. Experiential results tell us salt water curing is helpful for this.

Let us agree for the sake of argument that the above is true. What is it about NaCl that helps remove this from the rock? Is there a chemical reaction? Does it act like a detergent or soap?

Either fresh or salt water will grow bacteria that can help remove phosphate and silicate. Adding the nacl just helps propagate the correct bacteria that is going to be living in the final environment, rather than causing fresh water bacteria to die off when moved into salt water

 

[W1ngz]

But why not fresh water?

I think this is the root of what you're asking.

The bacteria that develop in saltwater are not the same species as those that develop in freshwater, although they do both consume ammonia.

The freshwater bacteria won't live once put into saltwater, so you would start the cycle from nothing, without even the old dead organics left to give you a push.

Edit to expand a little: it should be heated to normal tank temps as well, because the strains of bacteria that thrive in room temperature water are also not the same as those that thrive in tropical temperatures. The further off you are from normal temperatures, the less viable bacteria you'll have for your goal.

 

[User1]

I AM asking why do I need to let my perfectly good brand new never been in a tank dry MacroRocks in circulate in salt water?

You are coming in a bit hot here but let me try and focus on on this one line of yours here. The quickest and easiest answer I can give you would be to reach out to Macro Rocks and ask. I have never used them before so cannot provide an answer or opinion on it.

However, if you had asked this question to me in an elevator I would answer "what are you trying to do with it". Not to be vague but using dry rock regardless of source is going to have some requirements. Which gets back to my reply - what is your plan.

Having just used 150 lbs of dry pukani - perfectly good, new, never been in tank, dry rock, I pressure washed it. Then threw it in tubs of standard water with a cup of bleach in each. Let sit 24 hours. Drained, rinsed, and another 24 hour of bleach bath. Dumped that out, rinse, then a 24 hour bath in lanthanum chloride. Rinse, repeat another couple days. Took all out, laid out on driveway, more pressure wash, rinse, then started my aquascape and fishless cycle.

You don't need to do anything but you do need to have a plan of what you want to accomplish. Dry rock takes a long time, I mean a very long time, to mature. Many ways to do this both inside and outside of the tank. Several ways actually. All work. It is up to you. Having said that if you wondering why in salt - I see no reason if you are just washing or rinsing it. Heck, even removing phosphate can be done using normal water as I did with my LC baths and Pukani rock.

But if any of the answers of yours lead to cycle or curing or a combination of both then my answer may change. Hope this helps. Have a grand day.

 

[texdoc77]

You are coming in a bit hot here

What do you mean by this? I'm not angry. I'm curious and trying to be specific. I ask lots of questions, because in my experience if you are not certain what everyone in the room is talking about, things get missed and in medicine this is a bad thing. It's just the way I am. I feel like I understand the nitrogen cycle and introduction of bacteria into a tank system. Maybe I don't and I'm open to that. I feel like that is a completely separate issue than curing rock. Again, maybe not. Perhaps I should have defined things the way I understand them, which is fair.

For me:

Curing: The process of removal of organics from rock to help alleviate algal and diatom blooms in a tank.
Cycling: Introduction of bacteria into a system specifically for the breakdown of ammonia and nitrite.

I was not under the impression that bacteria helped remove phosphate from the system, but it was mentioned in a post above.

I was initially asking whether MacroRocks had organics, which makes sense they do. Moving on from that was the way in which salt water helps remove the organics. I'm not trying to challenge the status quo, just wondering why.

The reason I ask here is because when I google search it was too specific of a question and did not get any appropriate hits.