Why do you think new fish die in their first year?

[threebuoys]

Most fish deaths seem to occur within the first year after purchase. Often, the cause of death is unknown. Sometimes, clues suggest possible causes. We are all frustrated and disappointed when death occurs and ponder what we should do differently to help new fish to survive. New hobbyists are particularly challenged when death occurs within days, weeks or months of a major purchase.

What has your experience been? Have you altered your approach to new fish acquisition as a result? Are you more successful now than when you were a novice?

 

[BanjoBandito]

Fish are DELICATE, they live in a ecosystem that have been cultivated for them over billions of years to be perfect. Even the best hobbyist can have swings or nutrient problems. Add on top of that the stress of catching/shipping/transporting it's amazing we can keep them alive at all. I also think nutrient deficiencies play a big part when "fish just died". We usually feed an artificial diet, where in the wild they eat a variety of stuffs. I've had more success with "tank raised" or "aquacultured" fish, and I think a lot of it comes down to the species of the fish. Also, lots of people don't understand how much room a fish needs, these creatures are swimming in the ocean where there are zero limits in space, while we shove them in a glass cube that's often a fraction of their natural habitat. Moorish idols and flaming scallops come to mind. I know people keep them, but some things are better left in the ocean.

 

[Mr. Mojo Rising]

inexperienced and unknowledgeable, first-time fish buyers are the biggest reason for early and preventable fish death.

(due to, examples; overstocking, adding fish without cycling, not QT'ing, poor acclimation, poor filtration, poor fish choice for size tank, poor food choice......etc, etc)

 

[BroccoliFarmer]

There is a very old expression: sometimes fish die

it’s not a very popular expression, but very appropriate given the topic.

 

[BanjoBandito]

inexperienced and unknowledgeable, first-time fish buyers are the biggest reason for early and preventable fish death.

(due to, examples; overstocking, adding fish without cycling, not QT'ing, poor acclimation, poor filtration, poor fish choice for size tank, poor food choice......etc, etc)

Love your screen name btw!

 

[brandon429]

@ying yang

You and I had discussed fish losses within the first eight months, let us know what you found as a causative in the threads you started to investigate these claims. Looks like threebuoys came to a similar timing deduction

its disease by a landslide. natural deaths are .01% of losses, the majority by a landslide are preventable by the keeper based on how well they follow procedures from the disease forum. Some degree of received fish are too far gone to be saved. the majority of daily losses in the hobby are preventable. source: fish disease forum, and how Jay does not lose 80% of the new fish he procures for the zoo, the majority live, because protocols are followed. aquarists can attain the same % retention rate.

 

[ying yang]

@ying yang

You and I had discussed fish losses within the first eight months, let us know what you found as a causative in the threads you started to investigate these claims. Looks like threebuoys came to a similar timing deduction

its disease by a landslide. natural deaths are .01% of losses, the majority by a landslide are preventable by the keeper based on how well they follow procedures from the disease forum. Some degree of received fish are too far gone to be saved. the majority of daily losses in the hobby are preventable. source: fish disease forum, and how Jay does not lose 80% of the new fish he procures for the zoo, the majority live, because protocols are followed. aquarists can attain the same % retention rate.

Ummm me and you must got different impression from thread I started in " fish discussion forum " and also same thread I started in "fish diesese forum " after you said would be wrong people answering in fish discussion so answers be swayed

IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DISEASE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

Hi all,hope all is well. Just realised this is extremely long post so if want to skimm over it and just say if qt or not and have you lost fish in first 8 months or not to diesese/parasites feel free I'm seeing over and over that if dont quarantine fishes and when buy cuc/inverts or add...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Little c big D]

I'm not against QT. I just don't. And I stocked accordingly to fish that have the best success rate without qt. And I'm at 6months since the first fish. Only death was a jumper. I've since gotten a lid made.

I think diet is a bigger initial problem thn disease. Healthy fish will have positive immune response to alot of disease. The ones that are most lethal will likley hit much quicker. I think live, or quality frozen like LRS is the way to go. I've never dropped a dry food in my tank. They get lrs daily as well as there's a massive pod population.

That's not advocating against the QT process however, especially adding to an established tank.

 

[ying yang]

The trouble is it all has to do with sourcing. For my own work, I expect less than a 3% shipping loss and then less than a 10% loss in the first 40 to 60 days. But, this is from 50+ years of avoiding cheap, possibly cyanide collected fish, and doing my best at disease control during quarantine. I've measured my fish mortality rate for 20+ years. Post quarantine, it runs pretty consistently at 15% annually, This is from a group of about 2300 fish and includes FW fish and fish that die from "old age".

If I made a guess - a person buying pet store grade, SE Asian fish at a local "regular" pet store and not quarantining, is going to see about 80% mortality in a year: the 15% baseline, plus 40% inherent losses due to poor quality fish, leaving 25% loss from uncontrolled disease (which may include older fish exposed to sick fish).

Here is an example of quality control:

Hobbyist buys three 1" green chromis and a 2" orange anthias from Petco. They add these to their DT and lose them all, plus a bicolor angel they already had.

I buy six 2" green chromis from Tahiti and 6 Bartlett's anthias from the Marshall Islands sourced though a LA wholesaler I know of. I quarantine them and lose one Bartlett's.


Jay

Jay himself in other thread " same title " says reefers may get 80% loss in first year but his baseline of 15% loss he usually gets each year plus 40% from poor quality fish,and 25% from uncontrolled dieseses which may include older fish exposed to sick fish.

IS IT TRUE THAT 80% OF PEOPLE WILL HAVE FISH LOSSES DUE TO DIESESE/PARASITES IN FIRST 8 MONTHS IF DONT QUARANTINE ?

Hi all,hope all is well. Just realised this is extremely long post so if want to skimm over it and just say if qt or not and have you lost fish in first 8 months or not to diesese/parasites feel free I'm seeing over and over that if dont quarantine fishes and when buy cuc/inverts or add...

www.reef2reef.com

Here is other thread you insisted I made to make it fairer as you stated if make in fish diesese forum then the amount of people answering would be saying lots fish diesese but that wasn't the case as no one hardly answered and most the people that did answer ,already answered in first thread.

But anyway from the thread " is it true most people will have 80% fish losses due to diesese or parasites in first 8 months " most said no they don't

 

[BanjoBandito]

I'm not against QT. I just don't. And I stocked accordingly to fish that have the best success rate without qt. And I'm at 6months since the first fish. Only death was a jumper. I've since gotten a lid made.

I think diet is a bigger initial problem thn disease. Healthy fish will have positive immune response to alot of disease. The ones that are most lethal will likley hit much quicker. I think live, or quality frozen like LRS is the way to go. I've never dropped a dry food in my tank. They get lrs daily as well as there's a massive pod population.

That's not advocating against the QT process however, especially adding to an established tank.

 

[NoahLikesFish]

i will never have any sick fish with my current tank cause i am not getting any more

 

[brandon429]

Ying yang

people who don't practice quarantine often have a standard to uphold when they recommend best practices to others. A few will step outside that personal practice and recommend what works best for the masses: but usually people just relay to others what they themselves use.

anyone here who manages other's reef tanks after cycling knows the disease loss rate, and its massive. People who do not do any degree of tracking of other's tanks after cycling and base all advice on their own sourcing and procedure are likely to not agree, but we can see actual reality forming on any day by just reading the new rates of posts in the disease forum, its amazingly busy.



You have been part of several disease threads since the date of that post, you are seeing live time the rate of disease expression in the hobby. its been pretty good learning I can assume

 

[ying yang]

Do you know where the 80% number came from? I've never done a survey across home aquarists, so I don't really have a good sense as to the actual number. I've made educated guesses that come to around that figure, but they include non-disease mortality of new fish as well. This includes failure to acclimate, cyanide damage, etc. This article discusses some of those issues:

Aquarium Fish: Mortality Rates of Fishes in Captivity

Certainly, invertebrates experience mortality in captivity, but less is known about their natural longevity.

reefs.com

I've done three studies since 1985, involving mortality rates in "Grade B, SE Asian Fishes". These are those smaller, fish from Indonesia and the Philippines, often suspected of being collected with cyanide; small green chromis, tiny hepatus tangs, small bicolor angelfish, etc. In these studies, the mortality rate of these fish, over better quality fish held in the same systems at the same time (ruling out major disease problems) runs about 40 to 60% over the first two months. Better quality fish rates for the same period runs about 10% These would include fish from Hawaii and Sri Lanka.

I see a skewed proportion of dead/dying fish here on R2R in the fish disease section. I typically don't hear from folks that don't have fish disease issues. So, for me, the eight month figure is more like 100% (grin).


Jay Hemdal

From jay hemdal in 2 page thread above that I posted, he says done 3 studies and in s.e Asian fish imported grade b that in first 2 months have mortality rate of 40- 60 % and that's ruling out diesese so means not died from diesese.but if buy better quality fish from Sri Lanka or hawaii then rate if death like 10%

So seems like majority of fish deaths are from these poor quality fishes " Grade b" from s.e asia

 

[Fourstars]

Stupidly and lack of commitment.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

From jay hemdal in 2 page thread above that I posted, he says done 3 studies and in s.e Asian fish imported grade b that in first 2 months have mortality rate of 40- 60 % and that's ruling out diesese so means not died from diesese.but if buy better quality fish from Sri Lanka or hawaii then rate if death like 10%

So seems like majority of fish deaths are from these poor quality fishes " Grade b" from s.e asia

One caveat - over the past ten years, things were changing for he better in regards to fish from this region. Covid caused some lost ground, but there are some better quality fish coming from the region now….but you need to know how to find them.
Jay

 

[Little c big D]

From jay hemdal in 2 page thread above that I posted, he says done 3 studies and in s.e Asian fish imported grade b that in first 2 months have mortality rate of 40- 60 % and that's ruling out diesese so means not died from diesese.but if buy better quality fish from Sri Lanka or hawaii then rate if death like 10%

So seems like majority of fish deaths are from these poor quality fishes " Grade b" from s.e asia

He just likes to argue and start drama. It's a waste of your time and life to bother. He does it with everyone. Noone can have an opinion unless it supports his theories.

 

[Uncle99]

Inappropriate fit with others.
Inappropriate sized tank.
Inappropriate food offerings.
Poor water chemistry.

 

[brandon429]

One characteristic of the disease forum that really stands out to me, perhaps most of all, is each time someone posts for help Jay doesn't respond with a link of his tank.


they get info relative to their tank

in contrast, what does every single non quarantine debate thread show? advocates post solely pics of their own tank, for all arguments, for all angles, 100% of the time. that's a telling difference. inbound vs outbound locus of control.

Jay you're so thorough about helping others relative to their actual issues I don't even know a thing about your own home reef. I'd assume its dang nice, and not teeming with disease.

 

[ying yang]

they said that not from within the disease forum, they have a standard to uphold as they advocate non quarantine based on their own self reports

anyone here who manages other's reef tanks after cycling knows the disease loss rate, and its massive. People who do not do any degree of tracking of other's tanks after cycling and base all advice on their own sourcing and procedure are likely to not agree, but we can see actual reality forming on any day by just reading the new rates of posts in the disease forum, its amazingly busy.

I didnt do a poll on that thread ( wish I did) but it was like 90% that said didn't lose fish to diesese in first 8 months and I would like to think majority of people tell the truth as nothing to gain from lying imo ( no matter which forum they wrote in) which don't fully understand what a forum got to do with anything as " Jay said in above thread it's more like 100% fish lost from diesese for him regarding people posting in fish diesese forum what he sees" as he says he doesn't usually hear from anyone who's fishes havent a diesese.

But even if say 25% if people in thread I started above are complete utter liars and when their fish die of diesese they just go out and buy another fish like you said in that thread brandon and many others ,and 20% liars is quite a high number that still leaves 70% of people who don't have losses.

But all I know is my fish are ok without qt ( so far and I know could change at any moment or if add a new fish as still got 1 or 2 more to add) and im trying my best for my little fishy friends and try my best here on r2r helping others in anyway I can whether that's pointing them in direction of " Jay's 2021 diesese protocols " of they want to medicate fish or point In direction of " Jay's bio security thread " if a poster needs to fallow their tank so help them understand what a true fallow Involves or paul b and tamberav using other things in qt tank rather than just plastic plumbing fittings , or importance of 02 in tank or feeding or whatever as we a community here and imo all should help and pass on the knowledge we've learnt ourselves ( experience ) or in my case as only 9 months into my first tank then point in right direction or whatever

 

[Little c big D]

From jay hemdal in 2 page thread above that I posted, he says done 3 studies and in s.e Asian fish imported grade b that in first 2 months have mortality rate of 40- 60 % and that's ruling out diesese so means not died from diesese.but if buy better quality fish from Sri Lanka or hawaii then rate if death like 10%

So seems like majority of fish deaths are from these poor quality fishes " Grade b" from s.e asia

As he said. People post their own tank, but the person arguing with you, last I read.... doesn't have fish. So it's easy to not use your own tank as an example when you don't have fish