Why is NH3 going up and NO2, NO3 going down in new tank cycle with bottle bac.

[Antaguana]

Hello,

I am using the Hanna Marine Master HI97115 to test NH3, NO2 and NO3 daily while I cycle the tank with aquavitro seed (bottle bacteria) and NH4Cl. The numbers seem to be going in the wrong direction. Ammonia is going up (no fish and no more NH4Cl added. The Nitrate was going up but today it went back down.

Am I missing something or doing something wrong? I can't work out where the additional NH3 is coming from or where the nitrate has gone. Am I just fretting over noise in my data from fluctuations in test accuracy? I know this level of detail would not be visible if I were using a standard colour test chart. I expected the ammonia would have some downwards movement by the 4th day.

I didn't test on the 13th when I added as the tester was not working (it would not connect to the app and I was not sure if I was going to have to take it back to the store so I didn't want to open the reagents). Based on 350ish L of water the 19ml of NH4Cl should have taken the ammonia to a bit over 2ppm according to the bottle. So it seems odd that it would drop 0.76 in 24 hours and then start heading back up and would produce 18 NO2 and 0.9 NO3 in 24 hours and then nothing for 3 days.

data below. (more info in the build thread if needed.

		Measured				Added
Date	Time	Salinity	NH3 (ppm)	NO2 (ppb)	NO3 (ppm)	Salt (g)	seed (ml)	NH4Cl (ml)
6/1/2024 to 12/01/2024​	​	​				13300​
13/01/2024​	12:31:00​	33.6​
13/01/2024​	13:00​	33.5​					45​	19​
14/01/2024​	15:00​	33.9​	1.24​	18​	0.9​		22.5​
15/01/2024​	21:26​	34.2​	1.30​	15​	1.2​		22.5​
16/01/2024​	23:51​	34.2​	1.34​	19​	1.3​		22.5​
17/01/2024​	20:40​	34.3​	1.37​	18​	0.9​		22.5​

 

[Fish Fan]

Just a question, how did you setup your tank? What kind of rock and sand did you use? Live rock and even some dry base rock can have organics that breakdown and release more ammonia in your system.

 

[Antaguana]

Just a question, how did you setup your tank? What kind of rock and sand did you use? Live rock and even some dry base rock can have organics that breakdown and release more ammonia in your system.

It was dry white rock and 1 Kg of "reel reef" rock (the artificial purple stuff).
The sand was listed as "coral sand" also dry.

 

[Antaguana]

Also, I added the water over 1 week and the salt over another.
So the rock had been wet for 2 weeks before adding the bactera and NH4Cl.

 

[Mschmidt]

What's the margin of error on the tester?

 

[Antaguana]

What's the margin of error on the tester?

Hanna list the following accuracy
Marine Ammonia Accuracy ±0.05 ppm ±5% of reading at 25 °C
Marine Nitrite ULR Accuracy ±10 ppb ±4% of reading at 25 °C
Marine Nitrate HR Accuracy ±2.0 ppm ±5% of reading at 25 °C

So yes, It is possible that my readings are all "stable" and the variation is the +-4/5%

Would people normally expect to see a measurable change in 4 days or is it a much slower process (I have seen anything from day 1 to 6 months to fully cycle with most seaming to be around 2-4 weeks with bottle bac)

 

[GARRIGA]

Last setup was bacteria in a bottle plus ammonium chloride. Ammonia was solved within 4 days and nitrites in 9. Solved Nitrates with carbon dosing plus had to add phosphates as they were bottomed out in my system. Then I kept stress testing by adding more ammonium chloride until I was able to add 120 drops yet recommended was 12 to get about 4-5ppm to start. Might as well push the limits and develop that media bed before life added. Not like they die off. Just kind of hibernate until needed once again yet no chance likely of experiencing a second cycle.

 

[Antaguana]

Ammonia was solved within 4 days

Thanks @GARRIGA That seems to suggest I should have seen more downward movement in the ammonia by now.

I intended to measure and monitor till the ammonia got low then re-dose the ammonium Chloride back to 2ppm, monitor and wait till low again and repeat until it goes from 2ppm to ~0 in 24 hours (as recommended here Cycling an Aquarium by @Brew12 . But so far I'm just not seeing it go down. So either there is more coming from somewhere. The bac is not working, or the test kit isn't working.

Is there a way to narrow down which it is likely to be or what I might be doing wrong?

 

[Fish Fan]

I'm no expert, but some report that even dry rock has dead organics trapped in it that once wet they start to decompose (over many weeks or even months), and can lead to an increase in ammonia. I'm not saying that's what happened to you, I'm just pointing it out. In retrospect, it would have been nice to test your water before you added the ammonium chloride.

Sometimes new tanks can see some instability and head-scratching test results. I'm going to suggest you simply wait it out. Sounds like you have no fish or critters that would be harmed by high ammonia, and, in time, your biofilter will catch up.

I'm going to encourage you to post this again in the General forum or another sub forum, and I think you'll get a lot more help there.

 

[GARRIGA]

Thanks @GARRIGA That seems to suggest I should have seen more downward movement in the ammonia by now.

I intended to measure and monitor till the ammonia got low then re-dose the ammonium Chloride back to 2ppm, monitor and wait till low again and repeat until it goes from 2ppm to ~0 in 24 hours (as recommended here Cycling an Aquarium by @Brew12 . But so far I'm just not seeing it go down. So either there is more coming from somewhere. The bac is not working, or the test kit isn't working.

Is there a way to narrow down which it is likely to be or what I might be doing wrong?

I know API gets lots of abuse but their ammonia test strips (not the titration) has worked for me and I've validated it against a reference sample I created myself using ammonium chloride. Hanna have been known to lose calibration and if packet not added correctly the results can be off. Plus always best to have a second set of test kits to ensure confirmation.

Easy enough to create your own reference sample by adding ammonium chloride to RODI/distilled then testing that sample. if there's a margin of error then apply that to tank results until either test kit replaced or manual testing perfected. Problem with hobby kits being we aren't always precise and not saying you did anything wrong but I have myself gotten some odd results then seen it was my initial test being off because of how I tested.

 

[Antaguana]

Thanks @Fish Fan

Yeah I guess that makes sense, I assume even the fake dead rock is limestone or something like that at it was all covered in organics at some point in the past (although that may be the very distant past)

Correct, no fish or critters (other than the bacteria) that can get harmed, (and if we get into ethical quandaries about harming Baxter's we are in for a bad time.). So no trouble waiting it out. No rush, just curiousity of what could explain it. And making sure I'm not just wasting my time if there is something else that might be wrong and preventing the cycle from progressing.

I have read some comments about ammonium to ammonia ratio being hovered largely by pH in a marine environment. So perhaps the pH is falling and more of the ammonium chloride is being converted to ammonia as time goes on. I can't tell if the Hanna tests just ammonia or both ammonia and ammonium. The website and unit shows NH4 ppm but then the website says the method used is that the reagent changes colour when it reacts with ammonia or ammonium, so that wounds like it's sensitive to both. I wish there was some clearer info on that.


I will collect some more info tomorrow and repost in the general forum if it's still baffling me.

 

[brandon429]

Brew's cycling thread is old cycling science

did you know there's a way you can be cycled by Jan 27th, that exact date, without any more testing at all= new cycling science

it's ok to continue what you're doing, but you won't make the end of the month.


if you switch to a testless, time-based cycle (such as a cycling chart, they all show by what date ammonia is controlled in a typical setup) then you will be done by the end of the month and since no more testing or dosing will be required, merely 1 pinch of ground up fish food added to your tank, you could be spending the next 10 days wait time reading up on fish disease prevention in the disease forum-how to fallow and qt.

the cycle is the easy part, you can be done by the 27th by adding one pinch of fish food and nothing else to your setup. the hard part is not importing disease with the very first fish you add. concentrated reading in the disease forum reveals what happens to new dry start systems that skip disease preps with their ready cycles. and even if you use old cycling science to be ready by Feb 10th, you still have to apply the disease preps they're not related to how one cycles.

elevating disease planning well above cycle issues is by definition new cycling science. we already know when your ammonia will be controlled due to the adherence of bacteria to your surfaces, there's no need to test for something we've already been doing ten years in the forum.

Brew's thread is old cycling science, he doesn't even maintain it anymore. It should be unstickied in fact, it's misleading in many ways (it aimed you on the wrong course, for example)

the prime reason Brews thread is misleading as a sticky is because it doesn't mention the necessity for disease preps and the exactness of the cycle date end available to all reef tanks. old cycling science only understands variable-wait cycling, taking weeks longer to control ammonia that actually required and then immediately adding unprepped items from a pet store to make use of the tank: that's bad. it kills things to do it that way and the source is the disease forum daily post from prep skippers or prep attempters that left an open vector point despite efforts.

 

[GARRIGA]

Hanna I believe test total ammonia as do most test kits except Seachem which has one for just ammonium.

As for dry rock having ammonium, this is possible yet established bacteria should resolve it. Especially if an entire bottle was used which exceeded the tank volume. What I do. No sense preserving something that based on expiration might no longer be at full strength.

Which reminds me. Could the bottle have expired, been exposed to extreme heat or cold or previously opened. We assume the contents are alive but without a microscope that's a big assumption.

No experience with Aquavitro but have used One and Only as well as last being Bio Spira. If conditions don't change. Consider one of those. Latter I believe produced by Dr Hovack who sells One and Only.

 

[Antaguana]

It is a new kit, and they say it should not need recalibration but do sell reference samples for checking it. They make it quite clear that they are not required and they don't expect it to be an issue. But good point. I have no reason to believe the unit (or my process) is perfect. I have been trying to be very careful about getting all the reagent out of the pack and the right amount of sample water etc.

Good idea to make a reference sample with the RODI and ammonium chloride.

They say in the instructions always take the ammonia sample directly when testing as ammonia is volatile and will decay rapidly. So I guess a home made reference sample can't be kept long term. Actually come to think of it I'm not sure how that makes sense. I would think if it was going to decay rapidly in the sample vial it would do the same in the tank and there would not be a need for the denitrifying bacteria... There seems to be a lot of contradictory or confusing info around.

 

[brandon429]

per the picture above that's a common stack of rocks in a reef tank with sand.


what the feed does is boost up the initial strains of bacteria from the environment very quickly (as fast as a cycling chart says for ammonia control = Jan 27th) and these clades eat up ammonia fast and cover all surfaces in the tank

then over time as you add things that originate from reef tanks, selected strains that still eat up bacteria but are more adapted to reef tanks select in, the old selects out, and you're left with ammonia control the entire time even though ten different types of bacteria alternated generations during early maturation.

it's so clockwork we don't have to test for reef tank cycles anymore, this is new cycling science. We have a fifty page work thread of these jobs already on file, yours could be added to page 51

your tank can carry a basic bioload right now. the reason I opted for +10 days and some food carbon was just because we're in no rush, it takes that long to absorb fallow and quarantine ideas/ and because it's impossible you can't be cycled after about a month underwater and that's how long you'll be at when we get to J27th after some food addition for its carbon and phosphorous and nutrients ammonia doesn't add.

anything you could possibly test with those kits does not factor one iota in the assigned completion date. we're taking a system that can already carry life and adding bacterial boosters plus ten more day's wait-it's a shoe in.

 

[GARRIGA]

They say in the instructions always take the ammonia sample directly when testing as ammonia is volatile and will decay rapidly. So I guess a home made reference sample can't be kept long term. Actually come to think of it I'm not sure how that makes sense. I would think if it was going to decay rapidly in the sample vial it would do the same in the tank and there would not be a need for the denitrifying bacteria... There seems to be a lot of contradictory or confusing info around.

Agreed, that makes no sense to me but easy enough to make new samples therefore little reason to keep

 

[Mschmidt]

Hanna list the following accuracy
Marine Ammonia Accuracy ±0.05 ppm ±5% of reading at 25 °C
Marine Nitrite ULR Accuracy ±10 ppb ±4% of reading at 25 °C
Marine Nitrate HR Accuracy ±2.0 ppm ±5% of reading at 25 °C

So yes, It is possible that my readings are all "stable" and the variation is the +-4/5%

Would people normally expect to see a measurable change in 4 days or is it a much slower process (I have seen anything from day 1 to 6 months to fully cycle with most seaming to be around 2-4 weeks with bottle bac)

Could be testing variance then, could be user error (no statement on you, just they are close to impossible to duplicate amounts exactly), could be trapped organics as said above. Could be all three.

If you're ok waiting, then stick with that. It'll work in time.

 

[Antaguana]

@brandon429. I was reading some of the posts about how the cycle is like clockwork and there is no need to test. 14 days of water (with a fish or some food) = cycled.

I have a few questions I have not quite seen answered.

1. How is a fish or some food different to directly adding ammonium chloride? Other than the chemical concentrations are much easier to know with the ammonium Chloride?

2. Brew specifically mentions that food, a shrimp, or a fish will get a cycle going. But why guess when we can know the ammonia levels if done with the direct chemical. This is the reason they suggest it. Why has this changed.

3. I totally understand the point that chemical/ biological reactions take a particular time and once your know them you don't need to keep testing. To be honest I am doing daily testing more out of interest to "see" the stages and changes rather than to know them. I am happy to accept that adding some ammonia and waiting x days and the bacteria WILL be there doing their thing. I just like to see the numbers too. Surely this measurement to confirm what we know doesn't slow the cycle down. Or do you mean if we wait for the number to say ammonia is 2ppm to 0 in one day then that is actually well after the time that the tank is cycled enough to handle a basic bioload?

can you point me at the other articles /threads your referenced? I'll check them out too.

 

[brandon429]

whats limiting in the setup is the other half of the live rock missing

that will still carry quite a fish load, it's in the display for immediate contact where waste is produced. it's about 50% less rock than most use, surface area will be the limiter here on the 27th not the bacteria. and by limiter, am meaning you might not can carry 50 fish in it lol / it's not a real limitation.

 

[Antaguana]

whats limiting in the setup is the other half of the live rock missing

that will still carry quite a fish load, it's in the display for immediate contact where waste is produced. it's about 50% less rock than most use, surface area will be the limiter here on the 27th not the bacteria. and by limiter, am meaning you might not can carry 50 fish in it lol / it's not a real limitation.

You mean the right hand side being open water = less surface area = less space for bacteria to colonize.

Yes I am aware it is, shall we say, a minimalist scape. I was wondering if more swimming space or more hiding space is preferred by the fish. I see a lot of tanks with a lot of rock and think actual reefs have a lot more open water around them. I figured I would monitor the fish once added and see if they "enjoy" (read as make use of) the open water or all crowd around the rocks. Thinking it's relatively easy to add more.

What is the thought on the matrix materials. These say they have 700s of square feet of surface area in 1L of material. Which seems like it would outperform the rock and we could just add a bunch of that for the bacteria. Is their any truth to that or is it just marketing spin?