Why is NH3 going up and NO2, NO3 going down in new tank cycle with bottle bac.

[jda]

When you see that total ammonia trend down, and more near to zero, then you can slowly and smartly add fish.

Fish-in tank starts are not bad in their own. They get a bad rap because people were stupid and added too many or went too fast. You don't have to get high ammonia with fish-in cycles. Most folks don't recommend them on the off chance that somebody is dumb - this is easy to understand since patience is not a virtue that most have. This is no different than bottled bacteria tank start where the days counted are not enough for a specific situation and there is still a trace of ammonia in the water when the fish get in there. If you go too fast or don't take the necessary steps, both methods are the same. Just because a fish does not die does not mean that the gills were not damaged by some ammonia - fish just don't have TV lawyers to file lawsuits on their behalf years later like mesothelioma or asbestos workers did.

4 days does not mean much. You could have already seen nh3/nh4 lower, but maybe not. Totally normal. You have to remember that not everybody has the same test kits and might be testing for different things. Your Hannah test kit tests for total ammonia nh3 and nh4. Some tools and test kit test for just nh3 - nh3 and nh4 change out many times a second depending on the pH and if a tool like a Seneye says that you have .03 ppm of nh3 at a pH of about 7.9, then that is close to 1.0 total ammonia which is not safe - this is why smart folks do not recommend to trust a seneye alone, including guys who have their own reef chemistry forums and have run some of the largest reefs in the world with hundreds of tanks in the back rooms starting up all of the time to get fish quarantined. Long winded way of saying that a total ammonia reading from Hannah is not the same as nh3 only from seneye or other test kits that only test nh3 - most hobbyists don't even know the difference and their experiences can often come without any nuance to apply to your situation.

What you are going through is OK. There is no one-size answer. Don't believe anybody who tells you so. It is good that you want to learn since that is the best way.

 

[Antaguana]

@jda thanks.

I have been wondering if the Hanna measures both NH4 and NH3. They are not clear about it and I have been unable to find someone making a clear statement about it.

The meter reports "NH3 ppm" on screen but their method on the website says the reagent reacts to both, which is not clear at all. Thankyou for the confirmation that it is measuring both, it will be easier to make educated decisions knowing this. So far I am finding the most frustrating thing is the contradictory or half information available. I understand that people have different views on things and sometimes those will be contradictory and perhaps even both correct in different ways or situations. But there is no need for Hanna to be misleading about what their meter measures. They must know the science behind it and be aware of exactly what it measures, why not make it very clear by showing xxppm NH3/NH4 on screen. I guess your comment about hobbyist limited understanding plays into that. I guess they say ammonia as that is the basic thing people are told to check for and they don't want to complicate it for people but is seems the egg has NH3/NH4 written on it, limited screen real estate? Surely it is important that people know if they are all talking about the same measurement or it gets very confusing. If one person is talking about measuring 0.05 and another is measuring 1 and they have the same water conditions but a different test kit that is going to be incredibly confusing for everyone.

Thanks for the caution on the seneye. I did read that they measure NH3 and pH and then calculate the NH4 based on that. I guess like most tools this is not a problem as long as you understand how it works and use it correctly.

Thanks again for all the great info from everyone. I have learnt a lot (which is my goal), hopefully I can apply that knowledge wisely to keep the eventual inhabitants of the tank safe and happy..

I will keep testing and waiting.

 

[jda]

I don't have that Hannah tester, but their literature says "total." I think that you can trust this. Besides, if it just tested nh3, then at a new tank pH of just under 8.0 with 1.XX of nh3 alone would have about 100 ppm of total ammonia - nh3 is about 10% of the total at a ph of 8.0.

In a few more weeks you won't likely ever care about ammonia/ammonium again unless you have to dose it to get nitrogen to your corals. In time, the AOB just become less and less important as things grow in your tank that will compete with them to use fish waste directly. AOB are important at first, but then they kinda become relegated to the shadows. This is all part of each cycle reacting to the current conditions.

Check back in later this weekend with an ammonia test. No need to test the rest... save the tests for later.

 

[Antaguana]

Ok, a few more days and nothing has changed.

Measured ammonia is still going up (even though I have not added any NH4Cl in over a week) the Nitrite and Nitrate have little change.

I don't get it.

		Measured	Measured	Measured	Measured	Added	Added	Added
Date	Time	Salinity	NH3 (ppm)	NO2 (ppb)	NO3 (ppm)	Salt (g)	seed (ml)	NH4Cl (ml)
13/01/2024​	12:31:00​	0​				13300​
13/01/2024​	12:31:00​	33.6​
13/01/2024​	13:00​	33.5​					45​	19​
14/01/2024​	15:00​	33.9​	1.24​	18​	0.9​		22.5​
15/01/2024​	21:26​	34.2​	1.30​	15​	1.2​		22.5​
16/01/2024​	23:51​	34.2​	1.34​	19​	1.3​		22.5​
17/01/2024​	20:40​	34.3​	1.37​	18​	0.9​		22.5​
18/01/2024​							22.5​
19/01/2024​
20/01/2024​		34.3​	1.43​	19​	1.1​	300​	22.5​
21/01/2024​
22/01/2024​		35.0​	1.48​	18​	0.6​

 

[Antaguana]

@brandon429​

​

It is coming up on 10 days since I started bottle bac and NH4Cl and the total ammonia is still going up not down. I have no continual source of ammonia to cause the increase (just the initial NH4Cl dose that still has not been reduced). Honestly, I don't have a good explanation of how that is possible. Where is the N coming from? All I can think is my bac are a source of ammonia, or its coming out of the rocks / sand.​

Now I know I don't have a seneye, but isn't this what you claim is not possible? You say you have never seen a bottle bac start after 10 days where it can not reduce ammonia. Please see table above, 10 days and the ammonia is going up on its own.​

Am I missing something about the claim? (other than I don't have a seneye, and unless you are saying the seneye actively removes the ammonia I'm not sure how constant testing with a seneye or periodic testing with a hanna give a different outcome.)

 

[Antaguana]

@brandon429

Just to be clear, if that sounded aggressive or confrontational please excuse me. Genuine questions and genuine interest, I don't understand what is going on and would really like a good explanation.

 

[jda]

If the ammonia test kit is accurate, then you likely got a non-viable culture of bacteria. This happens sometimes. A ride in a super hot delivery vehicle could do this, for example. Do you have a way to check the test result? If the check is in the same range as the original, then perhaps another bottle, or some live rock is a good idea.

 

[brandon429]

Also post a new updated tank shot, which we use to verify there's no behavioral changes in bioloading compared to matured tanks. Where fish are positioned in the pic matters for sure.

The tendency in all old cycling science posts is to disregard any other proof vs what a test kit says, the big picture is better for cycling analysis

 

[Antaguana]

Also post a new updated tank shot, which we use to verify there's no behavioral changes in bioloading compared to matured tanks. Where fish are positioned in the pic matters for sure.

The tendency in all old cycling science posts is to disregard any other proof vs what a test kit says, the big picture is better for cycling analysis

The non existent fish have not changed behaviour, they still don't exist. Tank looks exactly the same. (The wave maker has moved some of the sand about a little bit)

 

[Antaguana]

I picked the bottle of bac up from the LFS during a heat wave. 38C, 100F. The car was not that hot as I have AC.

What temp causes issues for the Bac?

I have an API freshwater kit, I assume the ammonia test in that is still suitable for salt water. I will do a test with that for comparison.

 

[Antaguana]

Of course I have no idea how hot it was in the van / truck that delivered it to the LFS. 65C 150F is entirely plausible in an Australian summer.

 

[Antaguana]

I am still not sure I understand this rift between old and new science. Can you please explain a bit?

I have simply put back and NHCl in a tank and measured the Ammonia/ammonium, NO3 and NO4 levels. Surely the back and NHCl are new science (as apposed to chuck a bit of rotting seafood in the tank). And testing is testing, old or new it doesn't change the outcome, just gives an idea of what is happening. (This isn't a quantum effect, how we measure it is not changing the outcome other than I remove 10ml of water per test).

 

[Antaguana]

 

[MnFish1]

Last setup was bacteria in a bottle plus ammonium chloride. Ammonia was solved within 4 days and nitrites in 9. Solved Nitrates with carbon dosing plus had to add phosphates as they were bottomed out in my system. Then I kept stress testing by adding more ammonium chloride until I was able to add 120 drops yet recommended was 12 to get about 4-5ppm to start. Might as well push the limits and develop that media bed before life added. Not like they die off. Just kind of hibernate until needed once again yet no chance likely of experiencing a second cycle.

Why are two people answering on what was done - I assume it's some kind of sarcasm?First of all there is. no reason to keep adding ammonium chloride. Dude not sure if this was you or not. but pick a protocol and follow it

 

[MnFish1]

my opinion on the answers are:

1. ammonia/nitrogen is an important source of energy for cycling bacteria and when the other requirements have been withheld, things like carbon and phosphate (some cycles do not use fish food) environmental contaminations still are in play for delivering those materials. anyone here can get a clean new strip of packing tape and stick it/pull it off our baseboards or the tops of ceiling fans and look at what sticks. all that muck stuck to the tape are the environmental rafts that get micronutrients to most cycles. air currents deliver flotsam into the tank, our own hands and arms and building process brings some in etc

assembling a tank in a home is a naturally dirty process. These cycles may take longer to produce full power compared to carbon boosted ones BUT I still cannot find any evidence of a bottle bac + ten day ammonia cycle in a reef tank where surface area amplifies bac ability failing to set up in a convincing way.

a convincing proof of failure to meet the ten day rule would be anyone's seneye graph showing no ammonia control by day ten, I've never seen a single one from a calibrated and normal unit. that really means something in cycle date tracking: nobody with a working seneye has seen any cycle arrangement ever take longer than ten days, heck I'd put a small $ bounty on seeing any example sets if people can find some.

boosting up the cycle with the fish food is a speed cheat and equalizer: even if no bacteria were added by bottle, that feed + contamination bacteria still would provide basic ammonia control because stacks of rocks as high surface area amplify what bacteria can do.

2. he's right for sure. that breakdown provides ammonia and micronutrients and the actual filter bacteria themselves. that process to completion takes closer to a month, we think (cycle nerds on the web) the bacteria aren't as concentrated nor active coming from a frozen shrimp for example.

3. I'd have to see your ammonia meter's readout from a totally cycled and matured tank to believe it at all. once we see the baseline from a matured reef tank then yes I would expect your system can move a good degree of ammonia on demand but we want the clear baseline first from a running tank with respiration in place and wheels in motion. your tank sitting static with no bioloading isn't a representation of the cycle, we're betting here on what it will do under load by Jan 27th though.

I never realized you were from Slovakia - because your answer no offense makes no sense to me

 

[MnFish1]

Oh I am very much enjoying the whole process.

I really like data and understanding what is going on.

I totally get that putting some ammonia in moving water and keeping it on earth will sooner or later be full of all kinds of bacteria.

I also understand that putting one hardy fish in water feeding it a little will have the same outcome. (And may be more or less uncomfortable for the fish while the bacteria get settled in).

My question is not, when can I add fish. I understand that the answer to that is you can add them as soon as the water is wet, just use hardy fish and little food and bacteria will sort it out (probebly).

My question is simply it's been 4 days with bottle bac and ammonium chloride and I don't see numbers moving yet. Is that common? Does it take a while to get going or is it usually measurable by now.

Follow the instructions on the bottle of bacteria you bought - without that no one can answer you.... IMHO

 

[Antaguana]

@MnFish1

Just one person here. No sarcasm, just confused.

I am not adding additional ammonium. @GARRIGA may have said he did when we responded. I have added bottle bac each day (mostly) as the bottle instructions say. I have added NH4Cl once as bottle instructions say. I have tested (more often out of interest) than the bottle says. The bottle says to wait for NH4 to go down then add more, and retest on day 6 and 8. I am doing this but after 10 days the ammonia has only gone up steadily it has not gone down.

This is my whole confusion. Ammonia should be converted to nitrite and nitrate but the nitrite and nitrate are steady and the ammonia is going up (with no source of new ammonia).

The best answer I have so far is the bottle of bac is bad and is now simply a bottle of weak ammonia solution so adding it each day (as per instructions) is just adding a bit more ammonia each day.

 

[Antaguana]

Ammonia test from fresh water kit as a comparison to the Hanna saltwater kit.

(Not sure if we can trust this, it went cloudy as soon as I added the reagents so perhaps it is not suitable for marine water??). But it went greenish around the 1-2ppm colour so it's a dubious confirmation of the Hanna result.

 

[Garf]

Ammonia test from fresh water kit as a comparison to the Hanna saltwater kit.

(Not sure if we can trust this, it went cloudy as soon as I added the reagents so perhaps it is not suitable for marine water??). But it went greenish around the 1-2ppm colour so it's a dubious confirmation of the Hanna result.

Yes that's a positive. The colour cards are a little different between API fresh and saltwater, that's all.

 

[Antaguana]

@Garf
Thanks for the confirmation.

I will get a new bottle of bac and try again.