Why is NH3 going up and NO2, NO3 going down in new tank cycle with bottle bac.

[fishyjoes]

So now that the Ammonia is finally coming down I am trying to decide if I should follow @GARRIGA comment and add more NH4Cl back to 2 ppm and continue waiting for it to be able to drop that in 24 hours.

No - stop adding ammonia
You don't need to process 2ppm of ammonia in 24 hours unless you plan on adding a lot of fish at once - like over a dozen. A single fish, or a couple of fish doesn't make that much ammonia.

Let your ammonia clear, maybe do a water change to reduce nitrate if you need to and add a fish or two.

For context, I once pre-cycled a tank until it was processing 2ppm in 24 hours. That tank I stocked with 17 fish (2 to 3 inch size) all at once and never saw a rise in ammonia (to me that means all those fish produce less than 2ppm ammonia)

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

No - stop adding ammonia
You don't need to process 2ppm of ammonia in 24 hours unless you plan on adding a lot of fish at once - like over a dozen. A single fish, or a couple of fish doesn't make that much ammonia.

Let your ammonia clear, maybe do a water change to reduce nitrate if you need to and add a fish or two.

For context, I once pre-cycled a tank until it was processing 2ppm in 24 hours. That tank I stocked with 17 fish (2 to 3 inch size) all at once and never saw a rise in ammonia (to me that means all those fish produce less than 2ppm ammonia)

This

 

[Antaguana]

Ok so just wait for 0 and get a couple of small clowns and a bit of a cleanup crew (perhaps a few snails) in then?

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Ok so just wait for 0 and get a couple of small clowns and a bit of a cleanup crew (perhaps a few snails) in then?

You could even add a few easy corals if you had any in mind. I have added coral day 1 with fritz bacteria and dry rock with no issues. This time I just dropped an elegance coral in mine when I added the water with no bottle bacteria. Had bacteria bloom waited a bit, fed the coral, gave it 2 days to digest, then 100 percent water change. Just dont dump large loads at once. My tank only has the coral and the small piece of dry rock I glued it to so it can stand. No sand or other media. Pump and heater that isnt even turned on is all thats in tank. If you have live sand or rock that was never dried out your good to go.

Tge only issue is bacterial blooms do to the oxygen depletion. Good air pump or surface agitation will help this.

My setup is different but principles apply. Add slowly. No need to dose. Just wait ammobia to drop.

 

[Antaguana]

Is it a good idea to add a coral with the clowns so they can host? Is there a good easy starter coral they would be likely to like?

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Is it a good idea to add a coral with the clowns so they can host? Is there a good easy starter coral they would be likely to like?

Clowns while they can host in coral really should host in an anemone. Clowns can irritate corals and not allow them to open or can be rough. While doesnt mean they cant be succesful or work, just means there is a chance it could hurt. Leathers, certan corals like torches, hammers, elegance, tons of coral have been seen to host. But again, anemones are better.

And some clowns wont go near anything and necer be hosted and others acclimation is needed. Otgers my dart right in. If you can find a pair already hosting, that would be your best bet. I dont know enough about anemones to recomend at moment.

 

[brandon429]

We're on page five debating readiness despite page one giving an exact calendar date to be ready, a month ago


Old cycling science was chosen here to the exclusion of any disease preps. Second prediction: fish losses hit by summertime

Basis for predictions: any help thread currently running in the disease forum and the age of the tanks posting for loss help.

 

[Antaguana]

We're on page five debating readiness despite page one giving an exact calendar date to be ready, a month ago


Old cycling science was chosen here to the exclusion of any disease preps. Second prediction: fish losses hit by summertime

Ok. I mean it is summer time here. But that's not the point.

Please stop with the old science shaming and guilt tripping. It is not helpful.

My ammonia has been to high the whole time. You are recommending I should have added fish a month ago to a tank with 1.3ppm ammonia.

Obviously I'm no expert, but I've seen a lot of people say that's not a good idea. So have been waiting testing and trying to find ways to get the ammonia down. I do not see how more time can be a bad thing.

Also I have not excluded any disease prep I don't have any fish to have diseases.

 

[Antaguana]

Please don't take that the wrong way. I appreciate help and advise. But so many people say ammonia above 0 or 0.25 is going stress and harm the fish (if not kill them) and you just say eh 1.3 that's fine don't even measure it just put the fish in. Just doesn't add up. Perhaps everyone is wrong. But the first thing your get told about fish tanks is learn and understand the ammonia cycle... If it just doesn't matter at all then prove it and people can stop making ammonia test kits. And bottle bacteria products etc. I mean why tell people to wait a month at all if the ammonia doesn't matter. But telling people who don't know what they are doing that 90% of what they read is wrong is frightening for the new people... It makes us have no idea what we can trust.

To be honest the worst thing I have found so far is how much information is either partial or contradictory, misleading or just blatantly wrong. Different opinion is fine, but this stuff is scientifically provable. I feel like the reef community needs to sort this out and agree on an actual proven solution.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Please don't take that the wrong way. I appreciate help and advise. But so many people say ammonia above 0 or 0.25 is going stress and harm the fish (if not kill them) and you just say eh 1.3 that's fine don't even measure it just put the fish in. Just doesn't add up. Perhaps everyone is wrong... But telling people who don't know now what they are doing that 90% of what they read is wrong is frightening for the new people... It makes us have no idea what we can trust.

To be honest the worst thing I have found so far is how much information is either partial or contradictory, misleading or just blatantly wrong. Different opinion is fine, but this stuff is scientifically provable. I feel like the reef community needs to sort this out and agree on an actual proven solution.

There are many right ways to do things and many wrong. Information in this hobby is always changing. What works for one person doesnt always work for everyone. I found 75 percent of information I read was not complete or was only partial correct. Still learning. If you start a process though, follow it through. This way you limit the issues and can pinpoint then meandering and falling off. Then you question what happened and not sure if it was the process or when you detoured off. If it doesnt work out, try again. Everyone here has your best interest right or wrong.

 

[Antaguana]

There are many right ways to do things and many wrong. Information in this hobby is always changing. What works for one person doesnt always work for everyone. I found 75 percent of information I read was not complete or was only partial correct. Still learning. If you start a process though, follow it through. This way you limit the issues and can pinpoint then meandering and falling off. Then you question what happened and not sure if it was the process or when you detoured off. If it doesnt work out, try again. Everyone here has your best interest right or wrong.

Thank Ben.

I agree with all that and I think it is what I have been doing.

I read thought the info and through there was a fairly broad consensus on the process of add bottle bac and NH4CL to 2ppm wait for it to fall add back to 2ppm and repeat till it's get 2ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours. And this usually takes ~1 month +- a bit.

When I didn't see ammonia dropping but going up I questioned this. And get told don't worry just wait 1 month and add fish.

At that date it's 1.3ppm and I think... No this doesn't feel right people say >0.25 is bad so 1.3 can't be good.

I ask more questions, wait longer, get to 0.25 and then question.. ok am I good now or should I add more to 2 and keep going untill I can get 2 to zero in 24 hours and again get all answers from. Yes, aim for 2 in 24 hours. No, wait for 0 and add. You should have added a month ago (when it was 1.3 ppm)

I mean ok, different opinions is great, but when the advice is yes, no and who cares... I mean what's the point in advice if it just doesn't matter? Why are we all wasting our time and why are their all the products ? If fish are fine with 1.3 ammonia then the advise should just be chuck salt and water in do disease prep and put fish in... These guys are literally saying Ammonia is not an issue, fish never die from it in thousands of tanks there is no case of a fish dying from ammonia ignore it just cycle for fixed time and go this is the new science anything anyone else says is out of date and old and your fish will die from disease and it will be your fault.

This just doesn't make sense to me. If ammonia doesn't matter then there is no need for the cycle so why are we waiting for a fixed time? Just why?

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Thank Ben.

I agree with all that and I think it is what I have been doing.

I read thought the info and through there was a fairly broad consensus on the process of add bottle bac and NH4CL to 2ppm wait for it to fall add back to 2ppm and repeat till it's get 2ppm to 0ppm in 24 hours. And this usually takes ~1 month +- a bit.

When I didn't see ammonia dropping but going up I questioned this. And get told don't worry just wait 1 month and add fish.

At that date it's 1.3ppm and I think... No this doesn't feel right people say >0.25 is bad so 1.3 can't be good.

I ask more questions, wait longer, get to 0.25 and then question.. ok am I good now or should I add more to 2 and keep going untill I can get 2 to zero in 24 hours and again get all answers from. Yes, aim for 2 in 24 hours. No, wait for 0 and add. You should have added a month ago (when it was 1.3 ppm)

I mean ok, different opinions is great, but when the advice is yes, no and who cares... I mean what's the point in advice if it just doesn't matter? Why are we all wasting our time and why are their all the products ? If fish are fine with 1.3 ammonia then the advise should just be chuck salt and water in do disease prep and put fish in... These guys are literally saying Ammonia is not an issue, fish never die from it in thousands of tanks there is no case of a fish dying from ammonia ignore it just cycle for fixed time and go this is the new science anything anyone else says is out of date and old and your fish will die from disease and it will be your fault.

This just doesn't make sense to me. If ammonia doesn't matter then there is no need for the cycle so why are we waiting for a fixed time? Just why?

@Randy Holmes-Farley has a thread about all these products.

There are threads also about how some products either equipment or chemicles are snake oils or band aids. My signature conatins a thread about minimalist builds and what is needed.

Just follow what you are doing, Already. Just keep eye on things. When you dose ammonia in high amounts it can be more than what a typical bioload might be. You will then have vacterial die off as tge tank tries to rebalance what can be supported under actual load.

Do what is comfortable to you and what you believe makes sense and you understand.

The good thing here is there is allowed difference of opinions. I dont agree with dosing ammonia. But thats me. If done right there isnt an issue. I have been on a forum where there was only one way and if you disagreed with the moderator you get banned. It was only their way. This forum allows for differences and leads to better understanding. Having differences allows to focus on the constant and go from there.

 

[Antaguana]

Yeah I am not saying there should not be any disagreement. But it would be really nice if people could agree on what seems like, very VERY basic thing like. Can / does ammonia harm or kill marine fish? It seams Brandon is saying it doesn't matter.

Florida department of agriculture says
"Un-ionized ammonia begins causing gill damage at approximately 0.05 mg/L and death at approximately 2.0 mg/L. Keep in mind that most test kits measure total ammonia and not un-ionized ammonia but may make no reference to the difference. A table is used to calculate the portion of un-ionized ammonia from total ammonia."

@brandon429 has told me to put fish in water at 1.3ppm. that total so 0.13 un-ionised at 8ph. So yeah that won't kill the fish but seems like it might cause gill damage.

I can understand the argument for dont dose ammonia and don't chase a particular ammonia drop per day like it's a magic number. And don't forget to prepare for disease But that is very different to saying oh your ammonia is really high and not dropping. Don't worry about it just add the fish on this date (regardless what the ammonia is on that day.). And then if they die I'll say it was disease that killed them.

 

[twentyleagues]

Whether or not this "new cycle science" is truth or just what is though of as the new truth doesnt matter. The fact is you still have an ammonia reading. That guy jumps in every cycle thread he can find and states the exact thing every time. Not every tank is the same not all products are created equal. I can get on board with putting live rock and sand to "insta" tank. But if you are using dry rock you have to check parameters. Again all products are not equal so could you get false readings? sure. And just because you do or dont follow the "new cycle science" what does it matter if you are following proper disease prevention. So your tank is "cycled" in 14 days your fish are still in QT so who cares. Might as well let the cycle "complete". "But you can put fish in!" Naw I cant they are in QT. "But Nitrite dont hurt saltwater fish you can put them in." Still in QT dude! like you add to every post. I can wait for nitrite to be complete also. Even if nitrite is not detrimental to salt water fish why do you care if I dont want to subject the fish to it just in case.
Sorry rant done.

 

[Antaguana]

What annoys me is he (and a few others) say there is no proof /evidence of any taken every with bottle back tank ever out of 1000s taking more than 30 days to cycle so just don't test it it's fine.

I provide graphs of my results showing 1.3 ammonia on the date he says it will be cycled and he ignores that and says I should have added fish anyway and then says I will kill fish from not doing disease prep with no evidence at all what kind of disease prep I am planning.

This is not new science, ignoring test results and restating your hypothesis is NOT science.

I should add, I was open to the idea that we might be able to say it happens every time so just follow this plan, check on day whatever just to be sure and go for it. Focus on disease it's more important. That seems like good advice.. but when you get a query. It doesn't seem like that is working for me. Why? You would be better to try to understand what weny wrong in my case so you can take that into account... Not just say it doesn't happen. That makes me mistrust everything you say and question your methods and motives.

 

[Antaguana]

When you dose ammonia in high amounts it can be more than what a typical bioload might be. You will then have vacterial die off as tge tank tries to rebalance what can be supported under actual load.

From my reading I thought that become a problem at 4-5 ppm.

Is that incorrect?
I was planning to stay at 2ppm

 

[twentyleagues]

What annoys me is he (and a few others) say there is no proof /evidence of any taken every with bottle back tank ever out of 1000s taking more than 30 days to cycle so just don't test it it's fine.

I provide graphs of my results showing 1.3 ammonia on the date he says it will be cycled and he ignores that and says I should have added fish anyway and then says I will kill fish from not doing disease prep with no evidence at all what kind of disease prep I am planning.

This is not new science, ignoring test results and restating your hypothesis is NOT science.

I should add, I was open to the idea that we might be able to say it happens every time so just follow this plan, check on day whatever just to be sure and go for it. Focus on disease it's more important. That seems like good advice.. but when you get a query. It doesn't seem like that is working for me. Why? You would be better to try to understand what weny wrong in my case so you can take that into account... Not just say it doesn't happen. That makes me mistrust everything you say and question your methods and motives.

In his eyes all test equipment but Syneye is false testing. I dont think its true. Sure like you said most tests dont test anything but total ammonia but there is math to help. And, sure you can get all kinds of issues if your test procedures are not followed or you cant differentiate colors properly. But it still gives you an idea. If your are following the disease prevention protocol while you wait what does it matter? Proper QT can take months so if you are doing that who cares about being able to cycle your tank in 14 days. I'd rather wait it out and give it a few more shots of ammonia to have a robust cycle going. Bacteria wax and wane with more "bio load" why not build it up?

 

[Garf]

From my reading I thought that become a problem at 4-5 ppm.

Is that incorrect?
I was planning to stay at 2ppm

I'm going to follow your build thread, sounds like you've got your head screwed on.

 

[Mako199]

Yeah I am not saying there should not be any disagreement. But it would be really nice if people could agree on what seems like, very VERY basic thing like. Can / does ammonia harm or kill marine fish? It seams Brandon is saying it doesn't matter.

Florida department of agriculture says
"Un-ionized ammonia begins causing gill damage at approximately 0.05 mg/L and death at approximately 2.0 mg/L. Keep in mind that most test kits measure total ammonia and not un-ionized ammonia but may make no reference to the difference. A table is used to calculate the portion of un-ionized ammonia from total ammonia."

@brandon429 has told me to put fish in water at 1.3ppm. that total so 0.13 un-ionised at 8ph. So yeah that won't kill the fish but seems like it might cause gill damage.

I can understand the argument for dont dose ammonia and don't chase a particular ammonia drop per day like it's a magic number. And don't forget to prepare for disease But that is very different to saying oh your ammonia is really high and not dropping. Don't worry about it just add the fish on this date (regardless what the ammonia is on that day.). And then if they die I'll say it was disease that killed them.

Brandon429 dude is straight up looney tunes. ......

 

[Antaguana]

sounds like you've got your head screwed on

Thankyou, I like to think so.

Although I am not very confident, as I have said I'm having a lot of trouble trying to dig through the mountains of contradictory info to workout what is real. Makes me understand why so many people get disappointing results when they start out. It's just not easy to get a straight forward answer to any question let alone a comprehensive top to bottom how to succeed. If anyone knows of a thread like this I would be so so grateful if you can point me to it.