Why is NH3 going up and NO2, NO3 going down in new tank cycle with bottle bac.

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

I think the mix up is that we look at cycle as static vs continous. This cycle is on going. But tge issue is the amount of ammonia being added vs the amount of actual bioload. More ammonia is usually added in a span that would not relate to what an actual bioload does. Ontop of which plants and corals can utilise small amounts of ammonia and nitrate. As ammonia or food source runs out, the bacteria dies off to equalize to the available nutrient levels.

The other issue is there are a few good bacteria products abd a few bad products. Then we judge across the board. Some bacteria that I trust like frytz, i never had issuez and start right away adding livestock. Others may not had success or outside source causing issue and didnt know.

Live rock is the one true source of good bacteria that we can all agree on.

Im more of dont add things that can hurt down the road. Nothing wrong with adding ammonia to keep bacteria going but you dont need to add high amounts even without any other food sources.

Again, just stick with what you are doing. This way you can form your own conclusion and not have other factors to consider. You have a plan. And that is better than trailing off.

 

[Antaguana]

Brandon426 dude is straight up looney tunes

I would not quite go that far. I think he genuinely is trying to help. I just think he is getting caught up on one issue and not really reading the threads he comments on closely enough to really understand what is going on.

Like I don't think he actually thinks I should be adding fish to a 1.3ppm ammonia tank. He just doesn't believe that my tank could be that high at that point and doesn't believe my results.

Which seems odd, and unscientific, but not looney, I am sure he has things to add, it would just be nice if he could moderate his own comments before giving bad advice because he has ignored details.

I could be totally wrong. But this is the impression I have got from our interactions.

 

[twentyleagues]

From my reading I thought that become a problem at 4-5 ppm.

Is that incorrect?
I was planning to stay at 2ppm

Yes from what I've seen higher ammonia 5+ will inhibit bacterial growth.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Thankyou, I like to think so.

Although I am not very confident, as I have said I'm having a lot of trouble trying to dig through the mountains of contradictory info to workout what is real. Makes me understand why so many people get disappointing results when they start out. It's just not easy to get a straight forward answer to any question let alone a comprehensive top to bottom how to succeed. If anyone knows of a thread like this I would be so so grateful if you can point me to it.

This is the issue i had. Lots of contradictions. Even in books. Find the constant similarity and gocus on that

 

[twentyleagues]

I would not quite go that far. I think he genuinely is trying to help. I just think he is getting caught up on one issue and not really reading the threads he comments on closely enough to really understand what is going on.

Like I don't think he actually thinks I should be adding fish to a 1.3ppm ammonia tank. He just doesn't believe that my tank could be that high at that point and doesn't believe my results.

Which seems odd, and unscientific, but not looney, I am sure he has things to add, it would just be nice if he could moderate his own comments before giving bad advice because he has ignored details.

I could be totally wrong. But this is the impression I have got from our interactions.

I agree with everything you said.

 

[Antaguana]

Ok, sorry to do this... But back to my question.

Would it be worth adding some food or reef roids or other phosphate? Does anyone know if seed (stability) needs that and what level?

 

[Antaguana]

Is that a yes @Garf or an agreement that you would like an answer?

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

Ok, sorry to do this... But back to my question.

Would it be worth adding some food or reef roids or other phosphate? Does anyone know if seed (stability) needs that and what level?

I would not add any food source unless that is what was in your plan. You will then add another outside factor. Dont rush. Stick to your guns. Easier to figure out. If you planned on this then ok. If not dont.

 

[Garf]

Is that a yes @Garf or an agreement that you would like an answer?

I would always prefer to simulate a little fish feeding, as that's what's gonna happen anyway.

 

[Antaguana]

I would not add any food source unless that is what was in your plan. You will then add another outside factor. Dont rush. Stick to your guns. Easier to figure out. If you planned on this then ok. If not dont.

My plan was to dose 2ppm wait for the ammonia to go close to zero and repeat until it does it in 24 hours.

But plans change, people learn. If my plan was flawed (to take an absurd example, if my plan was to put fish in an dry tank and they die) then I am happy to admit I was wrong and the plan needs to change.
I have found that is VERY slow and people have suggested phosphate is required for the bacteria.

So I would like to get confirmation. Is it required? What level? What is a good way to add it?

 

[Garf]

My plan was to dose 2ppm wait for the ammonia to go close to zero and repeat until it does it in 24 hours.

But plans change, people learn. If my plan was flawed (to take an absurd example, if my plan was to put fish in an dry tank and they die) then I am happy to admit I was wrong and the plan needs to change.
I have found that is VERY slow and people have suggested phosphate is required for the bacteria.

So I would like to get confirmation. Is it required? What level? What is a good way to add it?

A pinch of crushed flake, a little reefroids if you are feeling extravagant.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

My plan was to dose 2ppm wait for the ammonia to go close to zero and repeat until it does it in 24 hours.

But plans change, people learn. If my plan was flawed (to take an absurd example, if my plan was to put fish in an dry tank and they die) then I am happy to admit I was wrong and the plan needs to change.
I have found that is VERY slow and people have suggested phosphate is required for the bacteria.

So I would like to get confirmation. Is it required? What level? What is a good way to add it?

If phosphate is required, then why dose ammonia alone and see the numbers drop for the amount ammonia? you also seen the decrease in time. So obviously unless the ammonia has phosphate in it as well, you dont need. Other wise people would say you need to add phosphate and ammonia source.

 

[Antaguana]

If phosphate is required, then why dose ammonia alone and see the numbers drop for the amount ammonia? you also seen the decrease in time. So obviously unless the ammonia has phosphate in it as well, you dont need. Other wise people would say you need to add phosphate and ammonia source.

Yeah that is kind of what I am asking.

Some people say some bacteria need phosphate. And some have done tests showing that some bacteria (in closed environment) don't do anything to ammonia in 30 days but in very specific conditions that are certainly not a tank. I have not yet seen a comparison with phosphate to say that makes a difference but I have seen that claim.

So there is a hypothesis that my tank is very slowly dropping ammonia as the bacteria from the air (that don't need phosphate) are building up and that we would get better results with phosphate which would help the bottle bac to succeed.

Yea I agree it is odd that the manufacturer has not said of you need some phosphate so we will add that to the bottle of bac or the the NH4Cl. So that makes me think it's probably not a thing.

Really I am just looking for an explanation as to why my tank cycle has taken so much longer to get going than most people would expect most of the time. Not that that is a problem in itself, but because I am concerned it might be an indication of some other problem.

Ultimately, Is there some condition in my tank that is making it hard for the bac? If there is, will that also make it hard for fish and coral (eventually). If so, I would like to identify and rectify it before subjecting them to it.

 

[twentyleagues]

I am going to be honest, I dont know. I used seed years ago and from that use it did not work. I switched to mb7 never had an issue running fish in cycles in fresh water with mb7. Is mb7 the go to? not any more. I used microbacter xlm and their ammonia product dosed to 2ppm on this tank. I didnt see any movement after a week. Was it my test kit? api maybe. Maybe I didnt shake the bottle enough. Maybe my fridge is to cold. I took the other half the bottle out of the fridge and let it warm up to room temp. I then shook it up and dumped the rest in the tank so a double dose. Two day later still 2ppm. I added a pretty good "pinch" of flake food. Two days later down to .5ppm. So whats the worst that could happen? Add some maybe thats what I was missing years ago when I used that product. I also heard that the bacteria that converts nitrite to nitrate needs phosphate after about 5 days of 5ppm nitrite according to api. I added reefroids I think 1/8 teaspoon. Nitrites dropped to 2ppm the next day. I did that 3 times in about 8 days 0 nitrite. I waited a day and redosed ammonia to about .5/1ppm. All this while my 3 scissor tail darts were happily QTing their little hearts out.

 

[Ben's Pico Reefing]

No condition. Tank is doing what it should, converting. You can add a pinch of food or add some live pods and a very fine amount of food for them. Tisbe pods. This will eat a bit of food as well and populate. Good food source all around and should tolerate.

 

[GARRIGA]

Comment about nitrites. Although that may not be toxic to saltwater fish the creation of nitrates without presence of nitrites where I establish the cycle being complete. I then solve nitrates now with carbon dosing which is a new thing for me. In FW I used plants. Was planning to use macroalgae but carbon dosing much simpler and very effective. Now I need that to establish cycle is complete as I’d rather not perform a WC to solve it.

BTW, any access to live rock that has been kept fish free for 90 days plus? Piece of that would get the party started and add diversity not found in a bottle. How I will likely setup my main except I’ll procure my own live rock and let it cure for 90 days plus in the tank. Dose ammonium chloride daily to maintain and grow the bacteria colony while fish and inverts simmer in separate systems. Those can QT with bacteria in a bottle as their home ripens for their later introduction. Might just cut out the ammonium chloride and seed it early with coral and inverts that passed QT. FOLLOW to start which is less boring than just viewing rocks and things growing

 

[Antaguana]

So Ammonia is down to 0.04.
I tested Nitrite and Nitrate to see how they are going.
Nitrite is off the ULR scale ie >200ppb
Nitrate is 45.4ppm

 

[twentyleagues]

So Ammonia is down to 0.04.
I tested Nitrite and Nitrate to see how they are going.
Nitrite is off the ULR scale ie >200ppb
Nitrate is 45.4ppm

Testing nitrates with nitrite is useless the nitrite is going to throw off your reading. But at least there is movement happening.

 

[Antaguana]

So nitrite off the scale is nothing to worry about? (Without livestock)

 

[twentyleagues]

So nitrite off the scale is nothing to worry about? (Without livestock)

Like I said earlier mine went to 5ppm (api) so thats 5000ppb. As we say in the automotive repair industry my car (tank) runs.
Shouldn't be an issue its way less then mine was and "everything" is fine in my world.