Why is this a bad idea? (Q from a two year newbie)

[mike550]

Hello all. I am in the process of completely rebooting my tank — including sand and rock. I’m going to build a new rockscape using Marco dry rock and was wondering whether I could simply mount coral frags directly to the rock before submerging the structure into the tank. Here are a few more details

I will use a 20G tank as a QT for the coral - feeding a bit of Reef Chili to nourish the coral and considering adding some matrix material to host bacteria. As the coral is going through the QT, I‘ll build the new rock structures and start filling the main tank. Once salinity, temp, etc are all good, I’ll mount the coral frags to the rock and then put the entire thing into the tank along with some Fritz Turbostart.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

 

[mehaffydr]

I think you may be asking for trouble. Using all new Marco rock you will go through the Ugly stag and a decnt amout of flucuation in parametrs in just inevitable. This may cause you to loose the coral. I would get the new tank well established and then add coral after everything is balanced and steady

 

[mike550]

I think you may be asking for trouble. Using all new Marco rock you will go through the Ugly stag and a decnt amout of flucuation in parametrs in just inevitable. This may cause you to loose the coral. I would get the new tank well established and then add coral after everything is balanced and steady

Thanks for your thoughts. I’m trying to avoid going “elbows deep” into my tank (24” deep 120G) so I was hoping to set the frags on the rockwork before placing it in the tank.

What if I started the Marco rock in a smaller tank and seeded it with bacteria first. Then before moving it into the display tank I attached frags. I’ll admit I’m probably creating a big risk of starting an ugly stage in the DT by turning on the lights.

Open to any ideas.

 

[davidcalgary29]

This is sort of like planting a garden in sand (which I have done) instead of preparing the soil and mixing in compost and manure first. You can do it, but it's just going to take so much longer to create a healthy environment in which your plants (or coral) can thrive without a healthy microbial environment. I've also used marco rocks to start a tank, and it took forever to get microfauna to get established on it. Conversely, my tanks with live rock took off like a rocket.

If you're going the dry rock route, I'd suggest that you use it for a platform for softies only for the first six months (to a year).

 

[mike550]

This is sort of like planting a garden in sand (which I have done) instead of preparing the soil and mixing in compost and manure first. You can do it, but it's just going to take so much longer to create a healthy environment in which your plants (or coral) can thrive without a healthy microbial environment. I've also used marco rocks to start a tank, and it took forever to get microfauna to get established on it. Conversely, my tanks with live rock took off like a rocket.

If you're going the dry rock route, I'd suggest that you use it for a platform for softies only for the first six months (to a year).

Thanks so much for your thoughts. By using dry rock I’m trying to accomplish two things. First, I’d like to glue my rock formation together rather than simply stacking rock as I have in my current setup. Second, I really want to try and keep the tank as “clean” as possible from outside pests. Im rebooting my tank because I have a hydroid problem I can’t control.

What are your thoughts on trying to aquascape with live rock?

 

[Bot587]

If you have a local reefer willing to harbor your rocks cape for a month or two on their sump that may be a better bet.

you can aquascape with any type of rock. Live rock brings in the good and bad.

As I said above, a local reefer you trust placing the rock in sump for a month or so will go a long way to combat the uglies.

 

[mike550]

If you have a local reefer willing to harbor your rocks cape for a month or two on their sump that may be a better bet.

you can aquascape with any type of rock. Live rock brings in the good and bad.

As I said above, a local reefer you trust placing the rock in sump for a month or so will go a long way to combat the uglies.

@Bot587 Im not an expert on avoiding the uglies. But I’m leaning towards Marco rock because it’s clean. After I’m done scaping the piece what if I put it in a container with bacteria (like Fritz or Dr Tim) and let it stew for a couple of weeks? Would that have a similar effect?

 

[Bot587]

Fritz and Dr Tim’s are great to boot your nitrogen cycle.

With that said, think of an established reef. The system is established because it has faced down multiple issues, which means it contains the organisms that feed on those “ugly stage” species.

you will get a selection of diversity and creatures from the frags you put in, however most of your real estate will be pristine. Meaning whatever species has the edge at any given moment will take over that real estate. This hobby is about balance and stability. You cannot eliminate every ugly, what you can do is mitigate the ability of the uglies to take root.

I’m not saying placing the frags on the rocks prior to start is guaranteed to fail. I am saying that this method has a much higher probability of leading to failure.
Corals will uptake nutrients, a pristine tank does not have these nutrients balanced.
Corals will swing parameters while building calcium carbonate, you will struggle to prevent alk swings.
Algae will inevitably compete, generally starting with diatoms. With no natural predators for these algae’s your corals will not be able to compete with them.
The list goes on.

each of these issues has a remedy in the hobby. An established reef will more than likely have the ability to provide these remedies much more rapidly than having zero population.

Think about a forest. A group of trees is planted into soil to create an overnight forest. The trees take root and grab nutrients from the soil thereby stripping the soil. The trees slow their growth. Insects move in to eat the weakened trees and their population booms. Eventually birds and larger insects will arrive to cull this population and in turn they will boom.
Now what if at the start you had brought in all the birds, insects, small animals, and trees together. The answer to any population boom would already be in the forest and balance could be obtained quicker.
Seeding from an established reef accomplishes this at a much smaller level. You will not be in balance, but the answer to most issues will already be in the neighborhood making balance more rapidly achievable.

this is my experience

 

[Tamberav]

@Bot587 Im not an expert on avoiding the uglies. But I’m leaning towards Marco rock because it’s clean. After I’m done scaping the piece what if I put it in a container with bacteria (like Fritz or Dr Tim) and let it stew for a couple of weeks? Would that have a similar effect?

bottled bacteria is very limited compared to an actual established system or ocean. We can not recreate the ocean or a aged tank in a bottle. We just can't.

If you are trying to do this with SPS or finiky LPS corals like torches, don't imo. Typical soft corals might be ok.

If/when the coral dies, you will still be elbows deep trying to replace the coral... just less money in your pocket.

I also hate getting my elbows wet so my tank is 16 inches deep

 

[mike550]

Fritz and Dr Tim’s are great to boot your nitrogen cycle.

With that said, think of an established reef. The system is established because it has faced down multiple issues, which means it contains the organisms that feed on those “ugly stage” species.

you will get a selection of diversity and creatures from the frags you put in, however most of your real estate will be pristine. Meaning whatever species has the edge at any given moment will take over that real estate. This hobby is about balance and stability. You cannot eliminate every ugly, what you can do is mitigate the ability of the uglies to take root.

I’m not saying placing the frags on the rocks prior to start is guaranteed to fail. I am saying that this method has a much higher probability of leading to failure.
Corals will uptake nutrients, a pristine tank does not have these nutrients balanced.
Corals will swing parameters while building calcium carbonate, you will struggle to prevent alk swings.
Algae will inevitably compete, generally starting with diatoms. With no natural predators for these algae’s your corals will not be able to compete with them.
The list goes on.

each of these issues has a remedy in the hobby. An established reef will more than likely have the ability to provide these remedies much more rapidly than having zero population.

Think about a forest. A group of trees is planted into soil to create an overnight forest. The trees take root and grab nutrients from the soil thereby stripping the soil. The trees slow their growth. Insects move in to eat the weakened trees and their population booms. Eventually birds and larger insects will arrive to cull this population and in turn they will boom.
Now what if at the start you had brought in all the birds, insects, small animals, and trees together. The answer to any population boom would already be in the forest and balance could be obtained quicker.
Seeding from an established reef accomplishes this at a much smaller level. You will not be in balance, but the answer to most issues will already be in the neighborhood making balance more rapidly achievable.

this is my experience

Thanks @Bot587 for your thoughts. I’ve decided to take a slightly different approach. I’m going to restart the tank with new sand, Marco rock, water, and use Fritz Turbostart to get things going. I’ll run lights out with fish for about a month. During that month, I will have a separate 20G which I’ll use as a QT for coral and let the corals grow out a bit. After that month or so, I’ll add the corals and start to ramp lights.

Would appreciate any thoughts you might have on this.

 

[exnisstech]

Mite be a good idea to cycle the tank before adding livestock. I always like to put dirt in a pot before I add the plants

 

[exnisstech]

Hello all. I am in the process of completely rebooting my tank — including sand and rock. I’m going to build a new rockscape using Marco dry rock and was wondering whether I could simply mount coral frags directly to the rock before submerging the structure into the tank. Here are a few more details

I will use a 20G tank as a QT for the coral - feeding a bit of Reef Chili to nourish the coral and considering adding some matrix material to host bacteria. As the coral is going through the QT, I‘ll build the new rock structures and start filling the main tank. Once salinity, temp, etc are all good, I’ll mount the coral frags to the rock and then put the entire thing into the tank along with some Fritz Turbostart.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

That sounds like a great idea. I wonder why more people don't do it? I know I hate getting my hands wet.

 

[mike550]

Mite be a good idea to cycle the tank before adding livestock. I always like to put dirt in a pot before I add the plants

Yep. I’m planning to use Fritz Turbostart to accelerate the cycle