Why the trend to dry rock?

[Belgian Anthias]

I mean adding ammonia to 2 ppm in order to encourage the growth of autotrophic nitrifying bacteria.

Word play. You know exactly what I mean. I'll stipulate that there are forms of diatoms, cyanobacteria, and dinoflagellates in every healthy system. I just don't want to start a nursery for the forms that tend to muck up a perfectly good looking reef tank..

If you read my article, I advise that tanks be started with what is referred to in the live rock industry as "base" live rock. It contains life required to establish the system but not the more complex life that is prone to die-off. I also advise a process I "borrowed" from @Lasse i.e. adding fish a feeding VERY lightly to supply small amounts of ammonia to maintain the life on the "Base" live rock.

Ii don't believe the substrate the coral is attached to affects its evolved biological processes (holobiont). I also believe if it did, the ceramic frag plug and epoxy I use would insulate it from the rock anyway.

Adding only ammonia will not help much to install a nitrifying capacity in balance with the needs. Nitrification is the final process of remineralization. using the produced ammonia not used up by the fast growing reducers. A balance is found between reducers and nitrifiers but it will take a few weeks because the nitrifiers are slow growers compared to heterotrophic bacteria, the reducers. Once the balance is installed the produced nitrate should be used up by slower growers, the producers, photo-autotrophs, algae, phyto, cyano, etc..
Adding a fish +- 85% of the nitrogen consumed will be released as ammonia. Normally most is removed fast. Most ammonia will be used by heterotrophs braking down the fish's droppings for the carbon they need but which are low in nitrogen.This is essential because nitrafiers are not able to use nitrite as long too much ammonia is present and in the first weeks not enough nitrifiers, bacteria and archaea, will be present to remove all amonia left over after mineralization.
My opinion adding a small healthy strong fish will do the job a lot better compared to adding only ammonia. A better idea is adding some organic fish food ( make it liquid) with a normal to low protein content days before adding the fish, and add the fish when nitrite is gone. The fish and it's feces will introduces all diversity needed to complement the diversity already present.
Will the presence of fresh " live rock" make a difference? it certainly will, positive or negative.

Instead of expensive"live rock", one can use one mussel or oyster. They contain a huge amount of diversity. If one can keep it alive the tank is supportive, if not, the tank will be supportive within a few weeks, containing all diversity needed, if one provides the space.

The substrate on which things grow is important, it has a huge effect on the final result of nitrification and denitrification and growth of organisms, having a huge influencing on the local environmental conditions, pH, alk, Phos, trace elements, etc...
For corals it is not only the substrate which is important, For corrals and all other organisms it is about the competition for nutrients in their new environment and it will for certain make a difference if they are put on a piece of rock on which their holobiont is able to develop or on a piece of rock consuming or and polluting their holobiont. It will have a huge influence on how they will be able to recover of the first chock and the way they will react on their new environment.

The best " alive rock" for a reef aquarium are healthy corals with its substrate, this contain all diversity needed for to keep corals alive.
To be able to adjust to the presence of new competitors, being substrate bound, what would they prefer? A piece of rock full with strange clades of bacteria from an other place in the world or a piece of rock with available space which it 's holobiont is able to colonize in competition with other organisms trying to do the same thing?

 

[s1oliver]

Have you guys been watching the new biome series from BRS? Been very good so far. Really enjoyed the information, and we are getting some actual testing with controls, challenges to each experiment, and results with genetic diversity testing on each setup.

Biome and Cycling - Bulk Reef Supply

Ryan and the BRStv crew dive deep into the biome of our reef aquariums to get answers about the ugly stage and further advance our understanding of what actually makes a healthy reef aquarium.

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Yes and I have some reef rubble on order from Aquabiomics as a result of it. It will be going in a 35 gallon Waterbox soon with live reef grade sand and dry rock. It'll be a good test to see how much of a difference it makes versus the other 2 tanks I started with dry rock, I fought algae for a year or more in both of those tanks. I plan to do a build thread and keep track of the progress.

 

[ReefGeezer]

Instead of expensive"live rock", one can use one mussel or oyster. They contain a huge amount of diversity. If one can keep it alive the tank is supportive, if not, the tank will be supportive within a few weeks, containing all diversity needed, if one provides the space.

Agreed... BUT... you are limiting your comments to the microbial life needed to establish a tank. Other things that are important to the system are provided by live rock i.e. sponges, copepods, arthropods, tube worms, and etc.

The best " alive rock" for a reef aquarium are healthy corals with its substrate, this contain all diversity needed for to keep corals alive.

If the goal was to create an environment solely for raising corals, I would use ceramic tiles. However, that's not usually the goal for most reefers. My goal is to create a small ecosystem that includes healthy, colorful, growing corals.

To be able to adjust to the presence of new competitors, being substrate bound, what would they prefer? A piece of rock full with strange clades of bacteria from an other place in the world or a piece of rock with available space which it 's holobiont is able to colonize in competition with other organisms trying to do the same thing?

There is always a microbial competition in a reef tank regardless of the substrate. That sets up a battle when new corals are added. Just the way it is.

Theoretically, one of the possible benefits of using live rock is to set up a microbial population robust enough to remain dominate as new corals and other life are added. This works so that once a coral has "acclimated" to a certain population, it doesn't have to do so over and over as new corals are added.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I agree .. eventually everything becomes live .
but the question is how long ?

for example : if you have a 100 gal setup with 100lbs of rocks .
Can you remove 50% of these rocks and add to a new system and call it fully cycled instantly ?

What will happen if you place rock covered with periphyton, a live rock, from a conditioned tank to an other tank not containing nutrients? it will start dying off!! The rock will NOT provide the nitrification capacity needed to eliminate the ammonia left over during the process of cleaning up the decay and this during a few weeks. Photo-autotrophs will grow about 6 to 8x faster using ammonia instead of nitrate, having little competition for ammonia and inorganic nutrients left over by processing the decay.

Cycling a tank is not the same as conditioning a tank. Cycling a new tank is bringing in all organisms needed to close the different cycles, carboncycle, nitrogencycle, sulfur cycle, etc.. Once this is done one is able to condition the tank to the bioload which one may expect, install the carrying capacity, by providing the space and install the growth capacity needed. Once the target bioload is introduced the tank can be balanced, finding a balance between consumers, reducers and producers. An aquarium will grow, the bio-load will increase constantly if not harvested.

The alive rock is bioload and contains everything needed to complete the cycles but the tank is NOT conditioned to the new bioload added.
Filtration capacity is not only linked to nitrification, It is about mineralization and remineralization but mainly it is about growth and growth rates. It is new growth what clears the water from organic and inorganic nutrients, growth needing a lot of energy!
The filtration capacity of alive rock is mainly linked to the growth taking place on its surface because of the water exchange rate needed. This surface can also be provided by so called dry rock or and base rock or anything else, as long it may support growth. That is why bio-filters are used. The surface available for growth can be adjusted to the needs at all times and growth rates can be managed.

 

[MoshJosh]

for me it’s a combination of fear of pests, and ease of aquascaping. Oh, and the purple, just love the look of the all purple rock.

 

[Jubei2006]

Yes and I have some reef rubble on order from Aquabiomics as a result of it. It will be going in a 35 gallon Waterbox soon with live reef grade sand and dry rock. It'll be a good test to see how much of a difference it makes versus the other 2 tanks I started with dry rock, I fought algae for a year or more in both of those tanks. I plan to do a build thread and keep track of the progress.

Awesome keep us updated!

 

[HBtank]

Aquascaping. A bunch of live rock isn't going to cut it in that department these days with the choices available (if you want interesting scapes with negative space).

But I would always have a good amount of seed rock from an established tank, or quality live rock.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Agreed... BUT... you are limiting your comments to the microbial life needed to establish a tank. Other things that are important to the system are provided by live rock i.e. sponges, copepods, arthropods, tube worms, and etc.

If the goal was to create an environment solely for raising corals, I would use ceramic tiles. However, that's not usually the goal for most reefers. My goal is to create a small ecosystem that includes healthy, colorful, growing corals.

There is always a microbial competition in a reef tank regardless of the substrate. That sets up a battle when new corals are added. Just the way it is.

Theoretically, one of the possible benefits of using live rock is to set up a microbial population robust enough to remain dominate as new corals and other life are added. This works so that once a coral has "acclimated" to a certain population, it doesn't have to do so over and over as new corals are added.

I do agree, including life forms not really aquarium minded.

In a reef aquarium, I would use calcium carbonate based substrate as much as possible.

Managing is using what is available and adding what is needed for the benifit of the target organisms. Providing the substrate and environment needed makes a big difference, maximizing the chances of survival for the target specimen

An aquarium is a very small territory for most marine species and territorial species may wipe out competitors and each other very fast. Non territorials are often difficult to keep alive.
Most plankton usable in a reef aquarium are available as specific cultures.

"life rock" as part of the bio-garden and display, part of the cultured bio-load , Why not? As a biofilter? There are much better and more effective ways .

if I would live near the sea I certainly would make use of "live rock", a piece full overgrown with aufwuchs and keep it in a refuge with a mesh filter and UV in the return for at least 6 weeks. The time can be used to learn how to manage periphyton and keep it growing. AAM, active aquarium management. One can not leave it just the way it is, hoping it will grow, as most reefers do when adding " cured rock" . "cured rock' for certain will condition the tank, but not always bring it in a desirable condition . It is bio-load.
Clearing the water of nutrients is about managing new growth and keep it growing, maintaining the growth rate needed.
Periphyton ( aufwuchs) is the ideal growth regulator because it has an average C/N ratio of 10

To start a mixed culture in a refuge why not use scrapings, periphyton, plankton, and leave the heavy stone where it is, in the sea? One does not need stones from the sea to build up a beautiful mixed reef aquarium and certainly not need them for cycling and conditioning a marine aquarium.

If there are benefits it must be for those trading in it, charging /kg.
I do not see the benefit for the aquarium in transporting a piece of so called " cured rock' from the other side of the world having a microbial population with a complete different mix of clades and types bacteria ( archaea?) formed during its journey having been in and out different waters, climates and environments, before ending up in a marine tank.

 

[I never finish anythi]

I think its a few things:
Live Rock is more expensive.
Dry rock is easier to get.
Dry rock is easy to sculpture outside of a tank.

Couldn't have said it better

 

[reefinatl]

Seems every “emergency”, algae issue and fish issue on here has a tank with a dry rock start up. Is it fear of pests? To me they can be managed and even eliminated with patience. The benefits of live rock far outweigh them in my humble opinion. I started mine with 7 year old rock from a sump from a guy who was tearing down. Had vermitid snails and aptasia as well as tons of sponges and a few mushrooms. Well, a year later after treating the aptasia with aptasia-x, none to be found. Added a bunch of bumblebee snail, vermitids gone. Fully established ecosystem that has been growing SPS since the second month. Not to start a war but why deal with all the issues dry rock presents?

Hobby is now more about glow in the dark frags for insta than geeks building ecosystems with cool corals along the way. That's what I've been able to figure out since rejoining a while back.

 

[ScionFRSguy]

Live rock bring everything in the saltwater tank to life!

 

[Steven Garland]

I love how people use dry rock,don't seed it while cycling and then have tons of issues because as soon as the tank is done cycling they add a ton of coral and a few fish expecting your nonexisting bio filter to be able to handle all the waste.

My tank has been wet for almost 2 months,4lbs of dry rock and 1.5lbs of mature,coralline covered live rock and no coral,fish or anything. Just a boat load of pods and some feather dusters on the rock.

Patience is never had,then want to beat the dead horse subject that has been brought up litetally 500 times: what is this,why are my fish dying,is this xxxxx algae,why are my coral dying.. Bro..USE THE SEARCH FUNCTION OR RESEARCH BEFORE STARTING A TANK !!!!

 

[Cjeippert]

I did not want pest overpopulation outbreaks…but realized overtime to not fear aptasia… just nuke it with F aptasia and remove it. Bristleworms learned to like them and appreciate their hard work as part of my clean up crew. I do hate vermitids tho. How I feed my tank, I will always have them. I am pretty sure even if you start with dry rock you will likely get all those other pests. Just a part of reefing. So with dry rock you will eventually get the bad without the good bacteria.