Your Resident Electrician for all your electrical questions!

Paul B · Jun 20, 2023

alton said:
Does anyone here disconnect all power before placing hands in tank, does anyone here test for amperage before sticking hands in sump. Or does everyone here believe in my equipment will never go bad?

In the 50s when I started this hobby and even in the 60s and maybe 70s, there was no GFIs so yes, we did unplug everything before we stuck our hands in the tank. We learned fast why we had to do that as all tank pumps were made of iron and salt creep covered everything from our air stones.
(there were no powerheads)

They were not required everywhere when I worked as an electrician in Manhattan but I retired almost 20 years ago so I don't know if they are required now. My brand new house had them all over the place but I threw most of them out because in some locations, they are just a pain and stupid. (and $80.00)

thatmanMIKEson · Jun 20, 2023

Do what you are comfortable with if gfci's give you the warm and fuzzies then by all means do what makes you feel good. but we can't make thing up that sound good i our head and pass them off as a law or code.

unfused lines have the same potential

geologeek · Jun 29, 2023

Young Frankenstein said:
After 25 years experiance on the field and 15 years at the office, as an electrican I think I can answer most of your questions.

Thanks and I hope you are good!

I was wondering if it would be possible to use something like a 24vdc 10amp power supply to replace the 4 No. 2 amp power adapter plugs for my jebao wavemakers, return pump and deltec skimmer?

The four plugs are just too bulky for my sump area and liking and I wonder if a 10amp supply can be used to replace the individual plugs for my new reef-pi build?

Thanks in advance,

Levi.

dangles · Oct 17, 2023

Roast my plan!

So it doesn't roast me!

I'm freeing up 2 slots in my panel for my aquarium build. I was planning to do 2x 20 amp breakers and installing a double gang outlet box, one side for each circuit. I'll pretty much be running dual-everything as far as pumps/wavemakers/heaters go... Dual returns, dual powerheads, dual (smaller) heaters, dual EB832s, and so on. (Yeah I'm a Neptune guy... for better or worse

). I had planned to run 1 return pump,1 heater and 1 powerhead on each EB832, and have each of those on a dedicated circuit. There will be other odds and ends plugged into the EB832s and on those circuits but nothing high-consumption or vital. This way, the only SINGLE points of failure will be the main house breaker, and my Apex head unit (*crosses fingers).

If I did the maths correctly, the TOTAL system consumption at MAX flow and MAX heat is just under 1100 watts, so divided in half, the 20 amp circuits will be PLENTY.

A couple of questions...

I'm leaning toward GFCI breakers (not outlets), knowing they have a tendency to trip. The outlets will be on the OTHER side of the wall from the aquarium where the controller board/cabinet will be set up. I understand there are higher and lower quality GFCI breakers? I don't mind paying more if it's LESS likely to randomly trip. I have a Siemens panel.

And what about AFCI? Worth it or nah?

And finally, since I'll be way under-capacity for the circuits, and my panel is already PACKED (the freakin electrician who did the original install divided out EVERYTHING onto separate circuits, leaving no empty slots - so I'm removing the 50-amp double pole breaker for a welder that I'll never use, freeing up 2 spaces). Would I be alright to do a tandem single pole 20-amp breaker to save a spot on the panel rather than 2 single pole breakers?

TIA

dangles · Oct 17, 2023

Also, unrelated...

Has anybody installed a whole-house surge protector in their panel?

What are the pros/cons? Is it something worth considering?

vetteguy53081 · Oct 17, 2023

@Paul B

thatmanMIKEson · Oct 17, 2023

dangles said:
Also, unrelated...

Has anybody installed a whole-house surge protector in their panel?

What are the pros/cons? Is it something worth considering?

they are required for any new panel or service installation or upgrade, there are 2 residential types type 1&2 also breaker style with different installation applications one type can be installed on the service meter only one type can be installed on either the service meter or a 2pole braker in your panel if you have the available space. they are a one time application so when they get used they are done and need replaced. these do not replace the need for individual surge protection at critical devices such as tvs and computers (imo) they are a little expensive and can be costly to have installed depending on application either type requires a permit and inspection and possibly a duke energy shut down depending on type to be installed correctly in the state of Florida.

Paul B · Oct 18, 2023

dangles said:
Would I be alright to do a tandem single pole 20-amp breaker to save a spot on the panel rather than 2 single pole breakers?

I have them all over my panel and I doubt anyone would care but they are probably not legal in some states if that bothers you.

But I would install them. You can also combine some of those circuits that only go to silly things and don't need to be on separate breakers. But you can't splice in the panel so you would have to put a box outside the panel and splice them together there. That would free up the space you need. I know now they like to put everything on separate breakers but I think it's stupid.

Just me of course.

thatmanMIKEson · Oct 18, 2023

Paul B said:
I have them all over my panel and I doubt anyone would care but they are probably not legal in some states if that bothers you.

But I would install them. You can also combine some of those circuits that only go to silly things and don't need to be on separate breakers. But you can't splice in the panel so you would have to put a box outside the panel and splice them together there. That would free up the space you need. I know now they like to put everything on separate breakers but I think it's stupid.

Just me of course.

you can legally splice in the panel, anything spliced outside of the panel over 6' in length would require arcfault protection. this happens alot when panels are replaced and moved when a splice box for circuit extensions are needed every circuit extended would need arcfault breakers, so if possible pig tail those simple circuits together on one breaker in the panel to free up space. good to run amperage test and even the load before picking circuits to combine.

those tandem breakers are great to free up space and legal, as long as your panel accepts them, but you cannot run branch circuits off them. branch require 2pole breakers.

dangles · Oct 18, 2023

thatmanMIKEson said:
they are required for any new panel or service installation or upgrade, there are 2 residential types type 1&2 also breaker style with different installation applications one type can be installed on the service meter only one type can be installed on either the service meter or a 2pole braker in your panel if you have the available space. they are a one time application so when they get used they are done and need replaced. these do not replace the need for individual surge protection at critical devices such as tvs and computers (imo) they are a little expensive and can be costly to have installed depending on application either type requires a permit and inspection and possibly a duke energy shut down depending on type to be installed correctly in the state of Florida.

Interesting. I wonder if that’s just a Florida requirement? This house is new construction and does not have one.

So what are people using for (quality) surge protectors these days? I’ll be using EB832s… are there single-outlet ones I can place between the EB832 and the wall? Or am I going to need to to get a strip-style unit?

dangles · Oct 18, 2023

Paul B said:
I have them all over my panel and I doubt anyone would care but they are probably not legal in some states if that bothers you.

But I would install them. You can also combine some of those circuits that only go to silly things and don't need to be on separate breakers. But you can't splice in the panel so you would have to put a box outside the panel and splice them together there. That would free up the space you need. I know now they like to put everything on separate breakers but I think it's stupid.

Just me of course.

Sounds like tandem it is!

Although do they make GFCI tandem breakers?

Also where can I source some *quality* GFCI breakers that are less likely to trip? Is it really necessary to stick with the company that made the panel?

BZOFIQ · Oct 18, 2023

dangles said:
Sounds like tandem it is!

Although do they make GFCI tandem breakers?

Also where can I source some *quality* GFCI breakers that are less likely to trip? Is it really necessary to stick with the company that made the panel?

You can also put regular breakers and use remote GFCI that you can place in easy to reach place.

Turbo's Aquatics · Oct 18, 2023

I always thought you couldn't splice inside the panel also

Food for thought, since your panel is full but you have an unused 50A breaker, why don't you go get a 60A load center panel and feed it from that breaker? now you have plenty of circuits

BZOFIQ · Oct 18, 2023

Turbo's Aquatics said:
I always thought you couldn't splice inside the panel also

Food for thought, since your panel is full but you have an unused 50A breaker, why don't you go get a 60A load center panel and feed it from that breaker? now you have plenty of circuits

Yep, a sub panel.

BZOFIQ · Oct 18, 2023

dangles said:
Also, unrelated...

Has anybody installed a whole-house surge protector in their panel?

What are the pros/cons? Is it something worth considering?

They are great but require a dedicated double pole breaker to be installed closest to your main breaker.

A lot of people don't have the space to easily add that in, especially in finished wall scenarios.

thatmanMIKEson · Oct 18, 2023

dangles said:
Sounds like tandem it is!

Although do they make GFCI tandem breakers?

Also where can I source some *quality* GFCI breakers that are less likely to trip? Is it really necessary to stick with the company that made the panel?

you will only be coverd by manufacturer if their brakes are used, it is not advised or legal to use a different manufacturers breakers although it is seen many times and alot will fit, its just best to do it correctly.

they do not make tandem gfci breakers because they work off one circuit neutral. they do make 2pole gfci breakers but you can not use these for 2 seperate circuits with seperate neutrals.

there is no difference in gfci breakers as far as ones that are less likely to trip.

Paul B · Oct 18, 2023

thatmanMIKEson said:
you can legally splice in the panel,

I know in New York you couldn't but I retired about 18 years ago so now maybe you can. New York used to have their own code that superseded the Federal code but I think they abolished that now.

dangles said:
Although do they make GFCI tandem breakers?

I have never seen one.

thatmanMIKEson · Oct 18, 2023

Paul B said:
I know in New York you couldn't but I retired about 18 years ago so now maybe you can. New York used to have their own code that superseded the Federal code but I think they abolished that now.

I have never seen one.

yeah I know a few states have things like that new york being one, in Chicago everything is in emt so state to state definitely makes a difference

Paul B · Oct 18, 2023

thatmanMIKEson said:
in Chicago everything is in emt so state to state definitely makes a difference

When I started as an electrician in Manhattan in 1973 EMT, BX and Romex were illegal. In a house we could use BX but in Manhattan on new construction everything was in threaded rigid pipe. I got really good at bending pipe and we built a lot of high rise apartments and office buildings.

(As an "A" Journeyman we almost never worked in a house, it was all commercial and industrial work. "M" class electricians worked in houses or renovation work at a reduced pay)

In Rockefeller Center everything is Rigid pipe even in existing work. We had to chop out the walls and install rigid, threaded pipe. And the entire place is built out of marble and granite.

Of course everything in new construction in the deck is rigid threaded pipe. We also couldn't use PVC anywhere except in our fish tanks.