Zebra Barred Dartfish eggs?

Fred2482

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I have 2 Zebra Barred Dartfish that have always stayed with each other. I recently moved them from an 80 into a 180 and seen one of them laying in this today. Are these eggs? If so, anything I can do to help them?

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ichthyogeek

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They...look like eggs? But I always thought that dartfish were more cave than open substrate spawners. Either way congrats!

Probably time to look into getting at least a rotifer culture going. The fry will probably eat them, or if not, might go after Parvocalanus (it seems to be a very “hot” copepod at the moment)
 
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Fred2482

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They...look like eggs? But I always thought that dartfish were more cave than open substrate spawners. Either way congrats!

Probably time to look into getting at least a rotifer culture going. The fry will probably eat them, or if not, might go after Parvocalanus (it seems to be a very “hot” copepod at the moment)

Thanks. They typically live in a cave, however this morning they started moving all the sand near the corner of the tank and then this.

I can get some food for them, just wasnt sure if its actually possible to successfully hatch them.
 

Wolf89

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As far as I know, these fish lay egg balls, similar to dottybacks, in there caves. I'm not convinced these are zebra goby eggs
 

Wolf89

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This is what todd Gardner told me when I asked him about breeding these fish
SmartSelect_20200714-164641_Messenger.jpg
 

wheels4896

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Thanks. They typically live in a cave, however this morning they started moving all the sand near the corner of the tank and then this.

I can get some food for them, just wasnt sure if its actually possible to successfully hatch them.
I know this is an old thread, but my bar gobies did similar. Dug out a corner for a couple days, and this morning saw this! Did you have any luck with the fry?
 

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ISpeakForTheSeas

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I know this is an old thread, but my bar gobies did similar. Dug out a corner for a couple days, and this morning saw this! Did you have any luck with the fry?
I haven't heard of anyone raising the fry of these successfully yet, but if you want to give it a try, here's some (mostly general) aquaculture advice that may help:
I can't find any pics of Ptereleotris zebra eggs to compare with, but they reportedly lay demersal egg masses in burrows/caves, so there's a chance this could be their eggs.

That said, in a typical reef tank, the eggs are fish food with almost no chance of survival. You typically need a larval-rearing tank that's safe for the young (no big fish or inverts to eat them, no equipment or filtration to kill them, etc.) and that has plenty of food for them (in this case, assuming that these are Zebra-barred Dartfish eggs, I would assume you'd need some very, very small feeder pods - such as Parvocalanus crassirostris or Oithona colcarva - to have a chance at feeding them).
(I really need to get around to organizing this info one of these days.)

"Some general advice that might help:
- Have a tank ready to move the larvae into (basically a tank with an air stone, a dim light, and a heater - a kreisel tank is ideal, but not necessary; you don't want a filter, a skimmer, uncovered pumps/powerheads, etc. - it needs to be as pelagic larvae safe as possible).
- Be prepared to catch the young when they hatch (ideally, you'd be able to move the eggs immediately before hatching into the new tank, but I'm assuming you don't know exactly when they'll hatch) - catch them and move them into the larval rearing tank as soon as possible.
Assuming you have fertile eggs, the advice I would give is this:
- if possible, get some Parvocalanus crassirostris pods too (rotifers are great, and I would expect the larvae to go for them, but some fish larvae are picky and prefer pods over rotifers - having both seems like a good way to ensure you have good, small foods for them, and Antennarius pictus was cultured using Parvocalanus nauplii, so it seems likely to be a good food source for them). Artemia and other larger pod species would likely be good to have on hand too for the larvae as they grow.

- Get various sizes of very fine sieves so you can control the size of the feeders being offered to the larvae as/if needed.

- Add phyto directly to the larval rearing tank. It’s a good method of ensuring that the feeders are gut-loaded and healthy, and it makes them easier for the fish to see (better feeding/survival rates are typically observed with this method).
- Observe and note information about the larvae (things like how big the eggs are, how big the larvae are, when the larvae settle, when coloration comes in, etc.) and the larval behaviors (stuff like if they are attracted to light, how they react to light, if they are attracted to certain colors, what feeders they eat and what what sizes of feeders they eat at what days post hatch, what kind of substrate they prefer to settle on, are they cannibalistic, etc.).

- Watch for developmental bottlenecks and issues with your rearing methods.

- A lot of people run into feeder issues their first few times breeding, so I’d have a backup plan in place to be able to get some feeders quickly if you find yourself needing some.
With regards to the sieves and feeder sizes:
- You may need to screen the feed initially to only offer Parvocalanus nauplii.
- Observing the larvae eating when/if possible is important for telling if they are accepting/able to eat the food you are offering them.
Generally the main thing to watch for at this stage is a bottleneck where the young start dying off - these usually happen after a few days (day three post hatch seems to be one of the most common bottleneck days for fish that hatch with a yolk they can feed off of - if the rots and phyto don’t provide the proper nutrition for these guys, you might see a die off sometime around here). Some fish run into multiple bottlenecks, including some that happen around/after 2-3 weeks post hatch, so you really need to keep an eye on how things are going. Bottlenecks typically occur because the food the fry is eating isn’t nutritious enough for them, or they’re not interested in eating the food offered, or the food isn’t the proper size for them to eat.
if you do run into a bottleneck and lose this batch, don’t get too disappointed by it - this happens frequently in trying to breed a new species (even to the professionals), and every attempt gets one step closer to success.
With regards to the substrate settlement:
- Some species need sand, rock, dark areas, specific colors, or other oddly specific things to settle on/in (from what I've seen, inverts are usually a lot more picky with this), so it may help to have a ledge or cave (PVC should be fine for this, if it's even needed, which I honestly kind of doubt) and a little sand in the larval rearing tank.


That’s all I can think of at the moment - hope it helps!"
This last link gives a bunch of info on rearing difficult species and trying to troubleshoot problems with the rearing:
Edit: I always forget to add this:
And to explain the sieving/screening of nauplii to feed:
Yeah, you'd need to screen the Parvocalanus culture prior to feeding them so that you're only offering the baby Parvocalanus pods (the 1st stage nauplii) to the fish larvae. This is what I was meaning when I brought up sieving the culture if the feeders were too large.

Adult Parvocalanus pods get up to 400 microns, whereas stage 1nauplii are about 40 microns. This means that they should be ~1/10 the size of the adult pods (which looks like it would fit with the ~20% gape rule). So, basically, before offering the feeders to the fish, strain them through a 45 or 50 micron mesh - this ensures that you're only getting the smallest available feeders (those that are small enough to fall through a 45 or 50 micron mesh), which should be more appropriately sized for the larval fish.
 

wheels4896

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I haven't heard of anyone raising the fry of these successfully yet, but if you want to give it a try, here's some (mostly general) aquaculture advice that may help:







This last link gives a bunch of info on rearing difficult species and trying to troubleshoot problems with the rearing:
Edit: I always forget to add this:
Thank you for the resources! I honestly do not have the bandwidth to go that hardcore unfortunately. Do you think there's any value in trying to just move them to my sump? I also called my lfs as the owner's fiance is a marine biologist and might be more inclined to try doing it right. Kind of sad to think of the little babies being reef snacks, but I know that's kind of the game.
 

ISpeakForTheSeas

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Thank you for the resources! I honestly do not have the bandwidth to go that hardcore unfortunately. Do you think there's any value in trying to just move them to my sump? I also called my lfs as the owner's fiance is a marine biologist and might be more inclined to try doing it right. Kind of sad to think of the little babies being reef snacks, but I know that's kind of the game.
Unless the sump has no mechanical equipment that could kill/remove the larvae and has a plentiful supply of tiny copepods, they'll likely just die down there.


To phrase the info above in a way that might sound more manageable:

-You need a larval rearing tank; a little tank with an air stone for flow is generally all that's needed, possibly with a decent light dependent on the species.

-You need larval food cultures; in this case, that means probably small copepods like Parvocalanus crassirostris, but for easier species (which this one potentially could be), it could mean just rotifers and BBS.

-You might need some small sieves/screens (like 45-50 microns or so) to feed only the tiny pods at first, and you might need to move up sizes to allow bigger pods as the fish grow. Eventually, you can transition them to larger foods like BBS and/or small pellets (like TDO Chromaboost or Otohime pellets).

It's definitely work to do, but it's not too complicated if you can maintain the feed cultures (pods/rots/BBS and phyto).
 

wheels4896

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Unless the sump has no mechanical equipment that could kill/remove the larvae and has a plentiful supply of tiny copepods, they'll likely just die down there.


To phrase the info above in a way that might sound more manageable:

-You need a larval rearing tank; a little tank with an air stone for flow is generally all that's needed, possibly with a decent light dependent on the species.

-You need larval food cultures; in this case, that means probably small copepods like Parvocalanus crassirostris, but for easier species (which this one potentially could be), it could mean just rotifers and BBS.

-You might need some small sieves/screens (like 45-50 microns or so) to feed only the tiny pods at first, and you might need to move up sizes to allow bigger pods as the fish grow. Eventually, you can transition them to larger foods like BBS and/or small pellets (like TDO Chromaboost or Otohime pellets).

It's definitely work to do, but it's not too complicated if you can maintain the feed cultures (pods/rots/BBS and phyto).
The primary issues I will have are
A) I don't have that stuff on hand, and I don't think I can get those specific pods in time for the hatching (if less than 72h is accurate)
B) work travel :( 1-3 wks/mo
 

ISpeakForTheSeas

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The primary issues I will have are
A) I don't have that stuff on hand, and I don't think I can get those specific pods in time for the hatching (if less than 72h is accurate)
B) work travel :( 1-3 wks/mo
Understandable - I just didn't want to leave you thinking it'd be impossible.
 

wheels4896

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Understandable - I just didn't want to leave you thinking it'd be impossible.
I appreciate you! I think I am going to try just moving them to the sump. I have no mechanical stuff other than the return (which is in a separate chamber). Pods multiply like crazy in there. Worst case scenario I can boost the pod population with extra food, which in turn can fatten up my smaller mandarin (who I bought emaciated from lfs).
 

SaltBabies

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So couple things..... Once they start laying eggs they usually continue so you'll have another 'chance'.
The sump isn't a terrible idea (cause it is what you have.....)
IF you don't have amphipods or tisbe pods.
I have found both of these will actually eat larva when it's small enough. The larva is bigger than the adult tisbe pods but they sit on them and take a chunk out if that makes sense.... (I believe based on observation with ruby red larva but did see it with a microscope).

If you have apopcyclops pods or others that swim around it would be great. I'd reduce the number fry. You won't be able to support 1000's probably not 100's so 10-20 down there would be my 'try'.
 

wheels4896

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So couple things..... Once they start laying eggs they usually continue so you'll have another 'chance'.
The sump isn't a terrible idea (cause it is what you have.....)
IF you don't have amphipods or tisbe pods.
I have found both of these will actually eat larva when it's small enough. The larva is bigger than the adult tisbe pods but they sit on them and take a chunk out if that makes sense.... (I believe based on observation with ruby red larva but did see it with a microscope).

If you have apopcyclops pods or others that swim around it would be great. I'd reduce the number fry. You won't be able to support 1000's probably not 100's so 10-20 down there would be my 'try'.
Thank you for the info. This clutch of eggs disappeared overnight. Will be neat to see them try again though.

Unfortunately I do believe I have tisbe pods, and know for sure that I have amphipods. It's a cruel world out there!
 

SaltBabies

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Thank you for the info. This clutch of eggs disappeared overnight. Will be neat to see them try again though.

Unfortunately I do believe I have tisbe pods, and know for sure that I have amphipods. It's a cruel world out there!
To be clear the disappear overnight didn't effect the eggs. probably the parents ate them or couldn't defend them from other fish. But small larva swimming can be targets of larger tisbe or amphipods. I have fed tisbe copepods strained for the smaller instars to baby fish but they were larger fish.
 
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