Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!

[jgvergo]

Yes I am still dosing. I am going 35days total, (for fish disease treatment testing) and what I am finding, @Bmwm235i might be interested in this, is initially all the areas I cleaned never came back but now 3 weeks into treatment im seeing the un cleaned hard to get to areas of dinos have turned white and powdery, and is dying off. So i am guessing the prolonged treatment has had a good effect. All coral and fish are great! Also i have maintained the reccomended dose twice a day

@BoneXriffic, I would theorize that continued dosing of bleach would kill off beneficial bacteria such as nitrifying bacteria. That might trigger a new cycle. With a tank full of inhabitants, that could be disastrous. Am I misinformed about what you are doing?

 

[BoneXriffic]

@BoneXriffic, I would theorize that continued dosing of bleach would kill off beneficial bacteria such as nitrifying bacteria. That might trigger a new cycle. With a tank full of inhabitants, that could be disastrous. Am I misinformed about what you are doing?

I test amonia. A tad over 3 weeks and no ill affect. In my write up in the fish disease section i discussed this. Bleach disinfects, not sterylizes. Water supplies can carry as much as 5ppm chlorine and support bacteria populations. The reccomended dosage is around .5ppm and seems to have no effect on bacteria, atleast not a substantial amount

 

[jgvergo]

I test amonia. A tad over 3 weeks and no ill affect. In my write up in the fish disease section i discussed this. Bleach disinfects, not sterylizes. Water supplies can carry as much as 5ppm chlorine and support bacteria populations. The reccomended dosage is around .5ppm and seems to have no effect on bacteria, atleast not a substantial amount

Can you post a like to the write up in the fish disease section?

 

[jgvergo]

I test amonia. A tad over 3 weeks and no ill affect. In my write up in the fish disease section i discussed this. Bleach disinfects, not sterylizes. Water supplies can carry as much as 5ppm chlorine and support bacteria populations. The reccomended dosage is around .5ppm and seems to have no effect on bacteria, atleast not a substantial amount

Ooops, can you post a link to the write up in the fish disease section?

 

[dansreef]

Hey Guys... Been out of town to the Northwoods again this past weekend. I came home and my tank was not looking too great. As you may know...I did a course of 4 days of bleach...twice a day....and things did not seem to be improving. When I saw how bad things looked this morning I figured the DINOs took off.

Well...I found some time to do microscopic surveys of the red matts of materials. Much to my surprise....very few...DINOs in the samples. The material I found was red cyno. Lots of it. This is good news to me.... I can cure cyno. That is easy! The DINOs however have proven to be very challenging. In my sampling....there are DINOs. Just in very small quantities ..... So.... What does this mean? I don't know yet. As others here including Twilliard...have seen....a low concentration of bleach does not seem to harm fish or corals....I am experiencing the same. No issues with my fish or the few corals I have in the tank. I only dosed 7 or 8 times.... Then pretty much gave up and took a few days off to Wisconsin. The fact that the balance shifted from DINOs to Cyno.....is interesting. If the cyno out competed the DINOs and is somehow winning.... This is something to take notice of... I think. We will have to see how things progress.

My plan is to do some additional water testing to see if nutrients have spiked... The last I checked last week.... Nitrates were around 30 and Phosphates around .08. I am also going to let the cyno outbreak continue. Like I said...that can be solved.

Would appreciate thoughts people have to this. Is it an anomaly or is this something to do some more study of?

 

[BoneXriffic]

Ooops, can you post a link to the write up in the fish disease section?

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/possible-velvet-irradication-many-warnings-inside.260088/

You will have to scroll through, but its effectivley whats been said here just on a different use of treatment

 

[dansreef]

Ok... Water tests as follows:

Nitrates between 4-8 as tested by Red Sea Nitrate Pro
Phospates 0.00 tested with a Hana Checker with an accuracy of +/- .04
PH 8.05
Temp 78


I tested phosphates twice with two different samples. I tested nitrates three times...one high level and then one low level. I also cross checked with a Salifert Nitrate...and it too shows the same.

I have been worried that the bleach would impact my denitrifying bacteria. Instead...the nitrates have dropped. The other insight...I am running a large ATS and have been for several weeks. I decided to keep it online through the tests of Metro which were largely unsuccessful....and then the bleach dosing. With Phosphates at near zero if not zero...either the cyano or the ATS is knocking it out! Most likely both together are consuming all the phosphates. If the nitrates can remain low or continue to fall... That would be terrific.

Anyway... I will share more in a couple of days.

 

[BoneXriffic]

Ok... Water tests as follows:

Nitrates between 4-8 as tested by Red Sea Nitrate Pro
Phospates 0.00 tested with a Hana Checker with an accuracy of +/- .04
PH 8.05
Temp 78


I tested phosphates twice with two different samples. I tested nitrates three times...one high level and then one low level. I also cross checked with a Salifert Nitrate...and it too shows the same.

I have been worried that the bleach would impact my denitrifying bacteria. Instead...the nitrates have dropped. The other insight...I am running a large ATS and have been for several weeks. I decided to keep it online through the tests of Metro which were largely unsuccessful....and then the bleach dosing. With Phosphates at near zero if not zero...either the cyano or the ATS is knocking it out! Most likely both together are consuming all the phosphates. If the nitrates can remain low or continue to fall... That would be terrific.

Anyway... I will share more in a couple of days.

If you have dinos, they will suck the phosphates dry, i had this problem and my corals hated it.

 

[dansreef]

Yes... I understand that. Note... My phosphates were at around .08 the last I checked them last week. I have been battling these DINOs for a very long time. They did not suddenly consume all the phosphates and the die off.... The ATS has been going for a while. Perhaps that kicked in and caused the elimination of the Phospates...significantly reducing the DINOs.... Also.... Nitrates falling to where they are from a solid >30 reading last week...is also interesting.

We will see how things progress. Perhaps a combination of a lot of stuff is starting to payoff for me. More to come!

 

[BoneXriffic]

Yes... I understand that. Note... My phosphates were at around .08 the last I checked them last week. I have been battling these DINOs for a very long time. They did not suddenly consume all the phosphates and the die off.... The ATS has been going for a while. Perhaps that kicked in and caused the elimination of the Phospates...significantly reducing the DINOs.... Also.... Nitrates falling to where they are from a solid >30 reading last week...is also interesting.

We will see how things progress. Perhaps a combination of a lot of stuff is starting to payoff for me. More to come!

It has taken me 3 weeks for total dino death with bleach only. But parts of my tank now are covered in white dead dino slime

 

[puffy127]

Hey Guys... Been out of town to the Northwoods again this past weekend. I came home and my tank was not looking too great. As you may know...I did a course of 4 days of bleach...twice a day....and things did not seem to be improving. When I saw how bad things looked this morning I figured the DINOs took off.

Well...I found some time to do microscopic surveys of the red matts of materials. Much to my surprise....very few...DINOs in the samples. The material I found was red cyno. Lots of it. This is good news to me.... I can cure cyno. That is easy! The DINOs however have proven to be very challenging. In my sampling....there are DINOs. Just in very small quantities ..... So.... What does this mean? I don't know yet. As others here including Twilliard...have seen....a low concentration of bleach does not seem to harm fish or corals....I am experiencing the same. No issues with my fish or the few corals I have in the tank. I only dosed 7 or 8 times.... Then pretty much gave up and took a few days off to Wisconsin. The fact that the balance shifted from DINOs to Cyno.....is interesting. If the cyno out competed the DINOs and is somehow winning.... This is something to take notice of... I think. We will have to see how things progress.

My plan is to do some additional water testing to see if nutrients have spiked... The last I checked last week.... Nitrates were around 30 and Phosphates around .08. I am also going to let the cyno outbreak continue. Like I said...that can be solved.

Would appreciate thoughts people have to this. Is it an anomaly or is this something to do some more study of?

Very interesting, I think I see less dinos and did get a cyano outbreak in my sandbed. I only did the 3 day metro dose. About a month after the metro, I did a 10-day 2x daily h202 dosing, but didn't see much improvement. I also added acartia pods and phytoplankton, but don't know if that did anything. I'm currently dosing chemiclean to get rid of the cyano. I'm still daily turkey basting my rocks and sand and daily changing out 100 micron filter socks. The socks are noticeably less full. I wasn't brave enough to try the melafix/me coral wash/bleach cocktail, especially since others didn't have much success with it nor with bleach alone.

 

[terri_ann]

@BoneXriffic , that's great news on the dino's! You are dosing just the bleach, correct? You are dosing lights on and off but have you cut the bleach dose in half or are you dosing the full amount twice? AM 1/2 dose or full dose...PM 1/2 dose or full dose? Run skimmer? Use filter sock? Have you done a WC?

I have dosed 7 days straight of the Metro and I am not seeing further decline in the few strands or the bubbles from the dino's. So I'm doing a WC later and will do bleach again. Maybe this time it will work.

Are you seeing any change with the velvet with the fish?

 

[terri_ann]

Hey Guys... Been out of town to the Northwoods again this past weekend. I came home and my tank was not looking too great. As you may know...I did a course of 4 days of bleach...twice a day....and things did not seem to be improving. When I saw how bad things looked this morning I figured the DINOs took off.

Well...I found some time to do microscopic surveys of the red matts of materials. Much to my surprise....very few...DINOs in the samples. The material I found was red cyno. Lots of it. This is good news to me.... I can cure cyno. That is easy! The DINOs however have proven to be very challenging. In my sampling....there are DINOs. Just in very small quantities ..... So.... What does this mean? I don't know yet. As others here including Twilliard...have seen....a low concentration of bleach does not seem to harm fish or corals....I am experiencing the same. No issues with my fish or the few corals I have in the tank. I only dosed 7 or 8 times.... Then pretty much gave up and took a few days off to Wisconsin. The fact that the balance shifted from DINOs to Cyno.....is interesting. If the cyno out competed the DINOs and is somehow winning.... This is something to take notice of... I think. We will have to see how things progress.

My plan is to do some additional water testing to see if nutrients have spiked... The last I checked last week.... Nitrates were around 30 and Phosphates around .08. I am also going to let the cyno outbreak continue. Like I said...that can be solved.

Would appreciate thoughts people have to this. Is it an anomaly or is this something to do some more study of?

Ok... Water tests as follows:

Nitrates between 4-8 as tested by Red Sea Nitrate Pro
Phospates 0.00 tested with a Hana Checker with an accuracy of +/- .04
PH 8.05
Temp 78


I tested phosphates twice with two different samples. I tested nitrates three times...one high level and then one low level. I also cross checked with a Salifert Nitrate...and it too shows the same.

I have been worried that the bleach would impact my denitrifying bacteria. Instead...the nitrates have dropped. The other insight...I am running a large ATS and have been for several weeks. I decided to keep it online through the tests of Metro which were largely unsuccessful....and then the bleach dosing. With Phosphates at near zero if not zero...either the cyano or the ATS is knocking it out! Most likely both together are consuming all the phosphates. If the nitrates can remain low or continue to fall... That would be terrific.

Anyway... I will share more in a couple of days.

Yes... I understand that. Note... My phosphates were at around .08 the last I checked them last week. I have been battling these DINOs for a very long time. They did not suddenly consume all the phosphates and the die off.... The ATS has been going for a while. Perhaps that kicked in and caused the elimination of the Phospates...significantly reducing the DINOs.... Also.... Nitrates falling to where they are from a solid >30 reading last week...is also interesting.

We will see how things progress. Perhaps a combination of a lot of stuff is starting to payoff for me. More to come!

Indeed I think it is good news for you Dan! I believe you have now gotten the upper hand on the dinos!! IMO the high NO 3 and PO 4 has contributed to the cyano bloom (and dying dinos and bacteria). The nutrient reduction has further been the result of the cyano and ATS. I agree to let the cyano continue on for awhile. Now you will need to decide whether you are going to try and eradicate the remaining dinos, or do whatever you want to do. IMO again, I would begin to hit the tank hard with dosing bacterias(Dr. Tim's waste away and Microbacter7) and copepods. Myself, I would dose the bacterias until I had a bacteria bloom (utilizing the nano-bubbling technique) and aggressive skimming. I still question whether a tank can be dino-free (or even should be)...balance is what we want for our tanks. Keep us informed!

 

[Kevin Plummer]

On day 3 of Metroplex and no sign of changes. Still forming stringy colonies. I was really hopeful about this one since nothing else has worked.

 

[terri_ann]

On day 3 of Metroplex and no sign of changes. Still forming stringy colonies. I was really hopeful about this one since nothing else has worked.

Do you have a tank picture? How long have you had them? What treatments have you tried?

 

[Kevin Plummer]

Do you have a tank picture? How long have you had them? What treatments have you tried?

I have tried 3 day blackout twice, H2o2 treatment for 2 weeks, stopping water changes and now on day 4 of Metroplex. I took a sample of the dino and IDed it under a microscope. Nothing has worked so far. I have been fighting them for several months. Its not overwhelming in my tank yet but seems to form colonies on my zoas mostly. I will attach pics of the dino under the microscope.

 

[terri_ann]

Yup, you got them.:9( The Metro can really knock them back for some people. I am on day 3 of using just bleach at twice/day. No fish or BTA's, rock or sand in the tank, just corals. I've used everything, h2o2, Cruz's method since I sell ReefGrow, Metro, lightsout, etc... There's a dino support group on Facebook. If you have FB, you might want to check it out. Some have had success using the Elegant Corals/Cruz Arias method...ReefGrow products and bacterias are used. Metro sterilizes the dino's and so does bleach and I think it may kill some too Exporting / filter socks & skimmers are very helpful

 

[mdlc805]

Haven't had the courage to use bleach but started using h202. I read earlier that someone using h202 started seeing good results and noticed cyano out competing the dino I think this is happening in my tank. If that person is still following can you tell me what you did next

 

[dansreef]

Hi everyone.

It has been a few days since I last provided an update. As I mentioned previously, I have a Cyano bloom that is exploding in my system. I also mentioned that it seemed that the DINOs were being competed with and seemed to be slightly reduced in quantities. This morning, during a multi hour conference call in my home office, I was able to do some microscopic survey work to see if the DINOs were still thriving or if their population was falling.


Just to set the visual…. My tank looks like KRAP! I have red mats of Cyano all over the sand, rock…and on some of the aquarium pieces. I essentially decided to let nature take its course. I removed the filter socks… I have not dosed anything… and I have simply fed the fish a combination of nori for the tangs and frozen food for the rest. Like I said the tank looks like KRAP.


Microscopic Survey Results:

• I surveyed 6 sites in the tank, from red material on rocks, to scrapings of the glass, to sand that was white, discolored and red… All 6 samples came back with ZERO DINOs. I found no indication of DINOs anywhere in the display tank. I even dug into the sand and took a sample or two… nothing…
  
  
• I did find a lot of MicroFauna…. But no DINOs or none of the two variants that I had.
  
  
• I then surveyed three places in my sump. I found Zero DINOs. I did find a lot of other organisms… but no DINOs of the variant I was fighting.
  
  
• I surveyed the ATS… I removed red, green and a black looking algae from the screen. I found a total of 4-5 DINOs in the samples….in total. They are there still in the ATS… but in very very small quantities.
  
  
• I found a TON of pods….of all sorts of other worms and shrimplike creatures. I have never seen so many…. Ever in this tank…or in this system.
  
  
• I did find some organisms that looked like DINOs but were a 1/10th of the size. They were very few and far between.
  

I am by no means claiming victory here. I agree with a previous poster that I am not sure a tank without DINOs to some degree is a healthy tank. There are literally thousands of different types of DINOs…many that are probably beneficial. There are a few that are a problem….and I had two such variants. As of today, I don’t seem to have an issue with these DINOs which is the first time in almost 18months. Yes… you read that right. If there is a treatment that has been thought of… I have tried it. That is why I decided to do something completely and utterly crazy like dose bleach in my tank. I am not saying that it solved the problem. But it may have been part of the solution. Remember, I also dosed a long stint with Metro…. Which reduced but did not eliminate the DINOs.


Next steps… I am planning to let nature continue to take its course. I am going to let the cyano continue to bloom. I don’t have much by way of coral in the tank anymore. I have some hammer, some shrooms and a leather or two. I will continue to monitor the nutrient levels….as of today Phosphates are still 0.00 and Nitrates between 4-8. I am replacing the LifeReef venturi skimmer I have been using with a new Skimz 201 skimmer. I had planned to do that for a while. I was sold a venturi skimmer that just did not seem to do the job as other skimmers I have owned. I have another Skimz and it has been a workhorse on another tank. I am going to install this new one later today… I will reinstall filter socks. I got a half dozen replacements and will run them on a every two day replacement schedule as I was before. We will see how things progress.


One last thing before I close this long post. DINOs have been a huge pain in the ****. I applaud everyone here including TWILLAIRD for trying to find a protocol to get rid of them. I am not sure there is a single protocol that works. I believe that it takes perseverance and patience to win the battle….and a pretty large dose of good luck. Who knows… I may find they are secretly plotting another tank take over. I will say that I almost quit. I have not enjoyed this new tank of mine…. actually almost 2 years old…in a very long time. I am hoping now…. Praying now…. That I can clean the tank up and move on.


I will post next week…as I start to clean stuff up. Have a great weekend!

 

[RMS18]

Update not sure what day I'm on or the last time I did a update. But I have not had to remove any sand in a week as there are no affected areas. I have added 2 big bottles of Dr tims bacteria, 5,000 pods, added purigen, cut light down to 6 hours a day, and stopped with red sea reef energy.
I was doing 2.5gal water changes every day when I was removing sand daily. The corals look soooo good and the pieces that were on life support are coming back! I think I'm going to hold off on adding sand for another 2-3 weeks.