Tired of fighting phosphates. About to call it quits.

[InvictusReef]

What is your water change schedule? I used dry Marco rock when I set up my 50 and I can’t keep phosphates. Maybe add a piece of dry rock and let it soak it up?

Ya dont do that as if it does actually soak it up (probably wont) it would leach it back to the water later on.

 

[MickeyCT]

I agree the hair algae is a problem, but I'm not convinced that your phosphate level is the cause. I agree that most people do think high phosphates are a problem but there are some folks who have high phosphates without an algae problem. See posts and podcasts by Rich Ross for example. My tank has been up for almost 20 years and I've always run high phosphates. I've tried lowering them just because that seems to be the thing to do, but it always climbs back up fairly quickly. Could be my old live rock, but regardless I don't have a hair algae problem and phosphate are something over 2.00 (NOT A TYPO)!

Definitely recommend doing more testing as recommended earlier by @areefer01.

15 gallons minus rock and substrate we are maybe talking 10 gallons of water. Assuming you are using a salt mix that matches your water chemistry it is easy enough to manage this today with water changes. No need to over complicate this.

What test kits do you have?
Are they in order, not expired?
How long does it take you to test water, say Nitrate, Phosphate, and Alk?

Me personally I would pick a time that you can collect a water sample and test every day, or every other day. It has to be at the same time. Same test kit(s). I would then do a test, note the results in sheets, excel, or numbers, and then mix up a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater. I would do a water change. Let it do its thing and test again the next day. Compare the numbers (before water change, post). I would then test again in 24 hours and compare. I would do this again on the third day. Compare. Depending on the results I would either test again or stand down and test again in 48 hours. So basically move to every other day.

The goal is to not over correct and see what the water change does vs the results of the tests. Is there a trend and what does it look like. This is maybe 10 to 15 minutes of work so to me a no brainer. Also I'm not in the don't feed camp. Fish regardless of age need to eat. When they don't they can become aggress, weak, or forage on things you don't want. Don't over feed obviously but don't starve them.

 

[jda]

There are plenty of corals that won't mind 0.40 of po4, but also some that will. Saying that all corals, this or that, is not smart, IMO.

Algae can grow with nearly no detectable po4. They only need a very small trace of phosphorous and there are many forms of it available that you cannot test for. Algae in tanks is usually from a lack of consumers moreso than super excess of waste products like no3 and po4. I have like 1-3 ppb of po4 and .1 nitrate and algae would overtake my tank without my urchins, snails and crabs.

po4 binds and unbinds to aragonite. This is not a leeching type of deal. There are rules and expectations. You have to just slowly and consistently lower the water level amount and the po4 will also unbind. This could take a few months of using LC or changing GFO every day. You just want to remove the po4 from the water slowly so that the levels do not spike down when you add the media and then spike back up again when the rock/sand unbind.

 

[shrimpnreefdude]

Got intrigued by this post via the R2R instagram page. I must say...I seriously dislike that there aren't hyperlinks in IG. Having to manually search threads here every time they post something is annoying. Anyway...

@QuinnLee512 I've been having the same issues recently. My phosphates are through the roof! Thankfully, nothing is dying. I do have some unhappy Duncans, but that's about it for now.

Mine has to do with two different feeding incidents/ accidents. At least that is my logical reason. Combined with weeks of overfeeding as it is, it was surely going to rear its ugly face. I was tapping food container to feed and tapped a little too hard which caused a massive amount of food to go into the tank. I also did that with Reef Roids. I know...I know...

Been doing decent water changes weekly. About to do another one tonight actually.

Community watching this thread...

How many water changes are too many btw? I have a 13.5gal Fluval.

I use the BRS high capacity GFO mixed with their Rox.08 carbon in a media bag. I only use half the recommended amount of GfO to lower slowly.

I was thinning of doing something similar. How much of each do you think you use per bag and how long does it last you?

I do weekly 10% WC and test PO4 weekly. If they drop too low, I just remove the bag for a week.

Do you resuse the same bag of media? Just let it dry out in a cup or container? It is unlikely to be depleted right?

Assuming you are using a salt mix that matches your water chemistry it is easy enough to manage this today with water changes. No need to over complicate this.

I really appreciate this approach and logic. This has been what I have been doing the past week myself to try and combat my issues.

Me personally I would pick a time that you can collect a water sample and test every day, or every other day. It has to be at the same time. Same test kit(s). I would then do a test, note the results in sheets, excel, or numbers, and then mix up a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater. I would do a water change. Let it do its thing and test again the next day. Compare the numbers (before water change, post). I would then test again in 24 hours and compare. I would do this again on the third day. Compare. Depending on the results I would either test again or stand down and test again in 48 hours. So basically move to every other day.

The goal is to not over correct and see what the water change does vs the results of the tests. Is there a trend and what does it look like. This is maybe 10 to 15 minutes of work so to me a no brainer.

Going to try this starting tonight. I have a 13.5 gal. How much water change would you recommend each evening? I am thinking 1-2 gallons at least?

Also I'm not in the don't feed camp. Fish regardless of age need to eat. When they don't they can become aggress, weak, or forage on things you don't want. Don't over feed obviously but don't starve them.

Agreed! They need to eat. At least a little bit. Fasting fish is good practice, but not for extended periods of time.

While troubleshooting the source of PO4, in the meantime some macroalgae would do wonders. They suck up nutrients like nothing else and also might suck up some metals / other stuff that might be the yet-undetermined cause of coral/invert deaths

I was thinking about adding a small bit of macroalgae, one for aesthetics, but also for function. Is there a type that is easy to care for and doesn't get too unruly with its growth?

 

[dansyr]

I was thinking about adding a small bit of macroalgae, one for aesthetics, but also for function. Is there a type that is easy to care for and doesn't get too unruly with its growth?

I like red gracillaria, grows pretty fast for me. Not chaeto fast but not as messy. growth form is dependent on flow too which is nice. Dictyota can be boring but pairs nicely aesthetically with gracillaria.

I love halimeda but that's more finicky, if nutrients bottom out it slows down a bit, and also cares about calcium, so might not be the best choice at this point. Not that finicky in the grand scheme of things, but aesthetically, halimeda is a must-have for me so just gotta throw that one out there.

 

[QuinnLee512]

Changed the filters in my rodi. Mixed new salt. Phosphate back up to. 55. Nitrates at 6.2. I haven't fed fish in 3 days. So frustrating. Where is all this phosphate coming from?!

 

[Miami Reef]

Changed the filters in my rodi. Mixed new salt. Phosphate back up to. 55. Nitrates at 6.2. I haven't fed fish in 3 days. So frustrating. Where is all this phosphate coming from?!

Why are you starving your fish???? Add GFO to a reactor and please feed your fish or rehome them to someone who can.

 

[QuinnLee512]

I know what to use to get rid of phosphate. I've done it. Hasn't worked. My question is where is all the phosphate coming from in the first place? Some said from the food. I don't know how that can be when I haven't fed since the last water change.

 

[Zerodameaon]

Try taking a chunk of your rock out and stick it in fresh saltwater. Do phosphates rise? Maybe your rock just has a ridiculous amount locked up. If this was already recommended sorry for the repeat.

 

[aSaltyKlown]

Changed the filters in my rodi. Mixed new salt. Phosphate back up to. 55. Nitrates at 6.2. I haven't fed fish in 3 days. So frustrating. Where is all this phosphate coming from?!

What have you gotten the po4 down to and have you tried a different test kit? Have you removed the algae yet?
It can take time, keep using GFO or Phosguard or something to lower the po4 and continue WC. If it's coming from the rock it may take a while for it to stabilize. It's a marathon not a sprint. Yanking the rock and starting over will start you at ground 0 and then the next thing would be, you can't keep po4 up as the replacement rock is absorbing it.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Believe the OP already responded — Hanna

Yes, he responded to miami's question, lol.

 

[QuinnLee512]

Try taking a chunk of your rock out and stick it in fresh saltwater. Do phosphates rise? Maybe your rock just has a ridiculous amount locked up. If this was already recommended sorry for the repeat.

I actually took a big rock out when I did a water change a couple of days ago.

 

[Aquadude1]

This is a long shot but are any aerosols used around the tank? That could raise po4 depending on which one is used and definitely kill inverts.

 

[QuinnLee512]

No aerosols. My rodi filters were indeed due to be changed but I've done that. Po4 went from .2 to .5 in 3 days without me feeding my fish so I'm not putting in po4 via food. Not sure if I should get live rock from lfs and replace my existing rocks? Po4 leeching from my rocks is the only thing I can think of.

 

[Aquadude1]

No aerosols. My rodi filters were indeed due to be changed but I've done that. Po4 went from .2 to .5 in 3 days without me feeding my fish so I'm not putting in po4 via food. Not sure if I should get live rock from lfs and replace my existing rocks? Po4 leeching from my rocks is the only thing I can think of.

I think I would do an icp test first. The fact that this has happened on two tanks and inverts are dying is strange and probably can't be tied to po4 alone.

 

[Aquadude1]

I'm just afraid switching rock is going to be a lot of effort and might not long term fix your problem

 

[Seansea]

You got something stirring sand? Diamond goby? Some kind of conch? Constant sand movement can kick up anything in sand. I couldnt keep phos up at all and then added a conch and a jawfish and now my phos continously rises. Always messin with sand and in some spots that i havent touched sand in 8 months. Ironically corals look better since this.

But ephos knocks it right back down again no sweat so i do t worry too much.

 

[Joe462]

Changed the filters in my rodi. Mixed new salt. Phosphate back up to. 55. Nitrates at 6.2. I haven't fed fish in 3 days. So frustrating. Where is all this phosphate coming from?!

so your water source is 0 phosphate now?

 

[jda]

I know what to use to get rid of phosphate. I've done it. Hasn't worked. My question is where is all the phosphate coming from in the first place? Some said from the food. I don't know how that can be when I haven't fed since the last water change.

The rock and sand binds phosphates. This is OK when the amount is low, but the more phoshpate that you add, the more the aragonite binds. Eventually, the water level starts to climb as the rock and sand binds.

The amount of po4 in the water column is very small compared to the amount in the rock and sand which can be a huge reservoir.

You just have to keep removing the po4 from the water column and the rock and sand will unbind eventually and the whole system will be lower.

 

[aSaltyKlown]

No aerosols. My rodi filters were indeed due to be changed but I've done that. Po4 went from .2 to .5 in 3 days without me feeding my fish so I'm not putting in po4 via food. Not sure if I should get live rock from lfs and replace my existing rocks? Po4 leeching from my rocks is the only thing I can think of.

You might swap one problem for another. Who's to say those rocks will not leech po4 or absorb it. Stay the course keep up with GFO or similar. It will come down.

Other than the algae, is there anything else as to why you are wanting it to come down? There are many reefers who run .3-.4 po4 with no algae issues.

Honestly, on a tank that small, I'd do a rip clean for the algea.