10000L Coral reef at The Maritime Museum & Aquarium Sweden

[Dr. Dendrostein]

How about refugium outside. Big one

Like a wetland

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

You really should of consult with me, before final approval. I would of designed, bad butt system. Run all of it, on a toyota hybrid. Your loss. I could of saved you millions$$. @Lasse would vouch for me. Heehee

Edit: Forgot, your in Sweden, I would have everything running off a Hybrid Volvo.

@Lasse, would of said "No, I wouldn't" vouch for me.

 

[Sallstrom]

You really should of consult with me, before final approval. I would of designed, bad *** system. Run all of it, on a toyota hybrid. Your loss. I could of saved you millions$$. Lasse would vouch for me. Heehee

Edit: Forgot, your in Sweden, I would have everything running off a Hybrid Volvo.

Yes that would have been something!!
And I agree, so much more could have been done.
But we are in Sweden(we really love rules here), financed by the city of Gothenburg mostly, and are located in a protected building from 1933. There's not a lot of room for crazy ideas
The good thing is that we get a new building instead of rebuilding the present Aquarium inside the old building. So we will be able to get pipes into the floors to connect tanks in different parts of the facility and a lot of stuff that wouldn't had been possible in the old building.

 

[A. grandis]

Here's an interesting thing about the metal halides. This is a graph of wavelenghts taken by an expert, using a JAZ-something, testing some of our light fixtures. The graph is a 1000W metal halide 16000K BLV.

Check out the peaks above 800nm. I think thats heat(but I might be wrong, I'm not an expert at all on wavelenghts). That part you don't see when you see the spectrum for a metal halide bulb. So a lot of the energi is transformed into wavelenghts above 800nm. Those LEDs we tested had almost no photons over 800nm.

And speaking of red wavelenghts, 600-700nm, you see on the table that 25% of the PAR is made up from red light.

Thanks very much for the graph! I love it!
Do you have the graph of all the other halide bulbs that you are using, please?
Also, did they give you the rest of the graph you just posted, after 900nm? Would be so awesome to see that!!!
This is exactly what I look for when trying to resemble the sun light in a tropic region, like for example Fiji, below.
LEDs just can't offer what I'm looking for, and unfortunately, I think they never will.
Here is the graph I have as my guide when choosing my artificial light for my reef systems:

Please post the other halide graphs, would you?
If you think this is going to take the thread away from your focus you are welcome to pm the graphs to me.
Thanks!

 

[Sallstrom]

Thanks very much for the graph! I love it!
Do you have the graph of all the other halide bulbs that you are using, please?
Also, did they give you the rest of the graph you just posted, after 900nm? Would be so awesome to see that!!!
This is exactly what I look for when trying to resemble the sun light in a tropic region, like for example Fiji, below.
LEDs just can't offer what I'm looking for, and unfortunately, I think they never will.
Here is the graph I have as my guide when choosing my artificial light for my reef systems:

Please post the other halide graphs, would you?
If you think this is going to take the thread away from your focus you are welcome to pm the graphs to me.
Thanks!

The other metal halides we tested was pretty much the same spectrum as the one I posted. I got some more from LEDs but these meassurements might go into a paper so I'm not sure I can post them yet.
No, all the graphs I got are only up til 900nm, sorry.

I'm pretty sure a LED can offer what you want, it's only photons and a recipe. You just have to find the right combination of diods.

Or you might like Plasma lights. That is the closest to the the sun spectrum you posted above I think. We got one Gavita Plasma 300W(bought 5 years ago to test). Quite yellow light. Now we use it to grow mangroves, they love it Still some heat, but not as much as MHs.
Here is the graph for the Plasma light:

 

[A. grandis]

The other metal halides we tested was pretty much the same spectrum as the one I posted. I got some more from LEDs but these meassurements might go into a paper so I'm not sure I can post them yet.
No, all the graphs I got are only up til 900nm, sorry.

I'm pretty sure a LED can offer what you want, it's only photons and a recipe. You just have to find the right combination of diods.

Or you might like Plasma lights. That is the closest to the the sun spectrum you posted above I think. We got one Gavita Plasma 300W(bought 5 years ago to test). Quite yellow light. Now we use it to grow mangroves, they love it Still some heat, but not as much as MHs.
Here is the graph for the Plasma light:

I understand about the LEDs' graphs going to a paper. I was going to ask for those as well, but in this case I will wait for the paper.

In regards to "LED can offer what you want"... Good LEDs can offer most of the visible spectrum and a bit more to play with, but the missing/extras delivered by halides are very important for reef life IMHO. That is why some hobbyists and professionals are now going back to their halide systems to grow healthier corals. Like I've said before, besides the missing spots in the spectrum, like the amount of UV, we have the most important aspect in terms of the difference between the 2 artificial light sources which is the PAR/spectrum distribution.

I want to make sure you understand that my goal here isn't to convince anyone to embrace my vision, nor to fire LEDs per say. Although I wish the best to others' tanks in a way, but I'm just exposing the way I see things and that I can't agree with the fact that halides and LEDs could offer the same light properties in the same fashion simply because they are different in nature. I hope you understand. That is literally: shape, reflection abilities, mounting, spectrum delivery, distribution, uniformity, efficacy, application, etc... I happen to choose the way a good halide bulb/ballast/reflector deliver light over a reef system to any LED available today. That's my belief and preference. I have many friends with LEDs and some look fine. I tried LEDs myself, but prefer the results from T5s only or halide/T5s for home systems. I've seen deeper tanks with "powerful" LEDs and they will never look like any system with powerful halides. Colony shape, colors and dead spots are some of the main differences. Most of these observations are aggravated with time and very noticeable in most cases. Specially when we have a system under halides and we switch to LEDs. Just my observations and personal opinion.

Plasma is amazing! It delivers down to some UVB and looks beautiful to me. Plasma is great for public Aquariums. Halides are still quite powerful for most applications though and offer great spectrum choices with many brands available. I appreciate the graph! Thank you!
Could you please post a nice picture of the mangroves under the plasma? I like mangroves a lot!

Still would love to have the 400W and 150W halide graphs with the correspondent brand, Ks and wattage, please.
I would think many of us would like to see.

Hope I'm not driving you/this threat crazy and to a repetitive cycle.
Any updates on the Acro's list? We need some pictures of those Acros as well, man...
This is a good thread!
Thank you again!

 

[Sallstrom]

I understand about the LEDs' graphs going to a paper. I was going to ask for those as well, but in this case I will wait for the paper.

In regards to "LED can offer what you want"... Good LEDs can offer most of the visible spectrum and a bit more to play with, but the missing/extras delivered by halides are very important for reef life IMHO. That is why some hobbyists and professionals are now going back to their halide systems to grow healthier corals. Like I've said before, besides the missing spots in the spectrum, like the amount of UV, we have the most important aspect in terms of the difference between the 2 artificial light sources which is the PAR/spectrum distribution.

I want to make sure you understand that my goal here isn't to convince anyone to embrace my vision, nor to fire LEDs per say. Although I wish the best to others' tanks in a way, but I'm just exposing the way I see things and that I can't agree with the fact that halides and LEDs could offer the same light properties in the same fashion simply because they are different in nature. I hope you understand. That is literally: shape, reflection abilities, mounting, spectrum delivery, distribution, uniformity, efficacy, application, etc... I happen to choose the way a good halide bulb/ballast/reflector deliver light over a reef system to any LED available today. That's my belief and preference. I have many friends with LEDs and some look fine. I tried LEDs myself, but prefer the results from T5s only or halide/T5s for home systems. I've seen deeper tanks with "powerful" LEDs and they will never look like any system with powerful halides. Colony shape, colors and dead spots are some of the main differences. Most of these observations are aggravated with time and very noticeable in most cases. Specially when we have a system under halides and we switch to LEDs. Just my observations and personal opinion.

Plasma is amazing! It delivers down to some UVB and looks beautiful to me. Plasma is great for public Aquariums. Halides are still quite powerful for most applications though and offer great spectrum choices with many brands available. I appreciate the graph! Thank you!
Could you please post a nice picture of the mangroves under the plasma? I like mangroves a lot!

Still would love to have the 400W and 150W halide graphs with the correspondent brand, Ks and wattage, please.
I would think many of us would like to see.

Hope I'm not driving you/this threat crazy and to a repetitive cycle.
Any updates on the Acro's list? We need some pictures of those Acros as well, man...
This is a good thread!
Thank you again!

Long day at work, a lot of meetings. I will have to get some energy before I answer this one. Hope you can wait until tomorrow or the weekend.
You are not driving me crazy, I like the discussions and the questions!

 

[Sallstrom]

Ah... the ongoing battle between the scientists and the engineers. The scientist is all about the pursuit of knowledge, the ideal way to do things and how things work. ;Bookworm;Singing

The engineer gets stuck trying to figure out how to make it happen given the limitations in space, time and budget!

Long meeting today with the engineer who draws the life support systems for us.

His words: "This building will be like no other. There will be more pipes in the walls than concrete.."

Us: "It would be great if we could get RO water to the lab. And to the classroom. And the sauna...."

 

[Brew12]

Long meeting today with the engineer who draws the life support systems for us.

His words: "This building will be like no other. There will be more pipes in the walls than concrete.."

Us: "It would be great if we could get RO water to the lab. And to the classroom. And the sauna...."

You should have asked him to do away with the walls!

 

[Sallstrom]

Almost forgot, took this yesterday. Can't just be boring text in this thread..

 

[A. grandis]

Long day at work, a lot of meetings. I will have to get some energy before I answer this one. Hope you can wait until tomorrow or the weekend.
You are not driving me crazy, I like the discussions and the questions!

I know you are also having fun at work and that is what matters the most.
Have a great day.

 

[NY_Caveman]

His words: "This building will be like no other. There will be more pipes in the walls than concrete.."

I am thinking of the Terry Gilliam movie Brazil

 

[Sallstrom]

I understand about the LEDs' graphs going to a paper. I was going to ask for those as well, but in this case I will wait for the paper.

In regards to "LED can offer what you want"... Good LEDs can offer most of the visible spectrum and a bit more to play with, but the missing/extras delivered by halides are very important for reef life IMHO. That is why some hobbyists and professionals are now going back to their halide systems to grow healthier corals. Like I've said before, besides the missing spots in the spectrum, like the amount of UV, we have the most important aspect in terms of the difference between the 2 artificial light sources which is the PAR/spectrum distribution.

I want to make sure you understand that my goal here isn't to convince anyone to embrace my vision, nor to fire LEDs per say. Although I wish the best to others' tanks in a way, but I'm just exposing the way I see things and that I can't agree with the fact that halides and LEDs could offer the same light properties in the same fashion simply because they are different in nature. I hope you understand. That is literally: shape, reflection abilities, mounting, spectrum delivery, distribution, uniformity, efficacy, application, etc... I happen to choose the way a good halide bulb/ballast/reflector deliver light over a reef system to any LED available today. That's my belief and preference. I have many friends with LEDs and some look fine. I tried LEDs myself, but prefer the results from T5s only or halide/T5s for home systems. I've seen deeper tanks with "powerful" LEDs and they will never look like any system with powerful halides. Colony shape, colors and dead spots are some of the main differences. Most of these observations are aggravated with time and very noticeable in most cases. Specially when we have a system under halides and we switch to LEDs. Just my observations and personal opinion.

Plasma is amazing! It delivers down to some UVB and looks beautiful to me. Plasma is great for public Aquariums. Halides are still quite powerful for most applications though and offer great spectrum choices with many brands available. I appreciate the graph! Thank you!
Could you please post a nice picture of the mangroves under the plasma? I like mangroves a lot!

Still would love to have the 400W and 150W halide graphs with the correspondent brand, Ks and wattage, please.
I would think many of us would like to see.

Hope I'm not driving you/this threat crazy and to a repetitive cycle.
Any updates on the Acro's list? We need some pictures of those Acros as well, man...
This is a good thread!
Thank you again!

What I don't get is if there is a difference in the photons from a LED or Metal halide? When I try to thing logical, in my head it's makes sense that if you choose the right LED diod combination you can mimic a metal halide light. Now I only think of the spectrum, not the distribution. You want say 300-400nm, use a diod for that and add to the rest of the diods?

And looking through our meassurments it's quite clear that the peaks over 800nm is in the air, when we meassured in the water these peaks are mostly gone. That means a lot of energy just goes to waste(or to heat). Is the heat(or IR light) not something that whould be good to aviod?

When it comes to distribution I agree, a metal halide with a good reflector is hard to beat. I think that is something that needs to be improved a lot when it comes to LEDs. I've seen a LED fixtures with great and very even distribution of light, but thats not an aquarium LED.

It always hard when it comes to observations. We all have our preconcieved ideas of what's "best". And if you want a "coral growth competiti0n" between metal halides and LED, how do you compare them? Gram/day/watt?

I admit, starting a new large tank, the most "save" way to go IMO is to use large metal halides with good reflectors. But since we're trying to save energy and want to aviod changings 30 MH bulbs every 9 months, we are willing to try to go all LED. If thats a good idea, I don't know yet

I get back with some more corals and mangroves soon!

/ David

 

[Sallstrom]

I am thinking of the Terry Gilliam movie Brazil

Just watched the trailer, looks interesting. Will have to find the whole movie and watch!

 

[Sallstrom]

On request, here's my current list of our Acropora species. All of them are not in the 10000L display, but I in the same system as that tank. Some we only have a couple of frags from, some 50 kilos
All species are my guesses. There are five more species that I don't even have guesses on yet.
I think 12 DNA samples on our Acropora were sent in this week for analysis in Germany. We hope they find some DNA to compare with earlier studies. If we get results we know our method is good for Acropora and can send more samples.
Our picture library is just for our own use, not very good pictures

Acropora yongei
Acropora austera
Acropora tumida
Acropora nana
Acropora echinata
Acropora formosa
Acropora turtusa, A gomezi
Acropoar formosa, Acropora yongei
Acropora selago
Acropora valida
Acropora hyacinthus
Acropora loisetteae
Acropora florida
Acropora carduus
Acropora efflorecens
Acropora tenuis
Acropora microclados (one version)
Acropora millepora
Acropora intermedia
Acropora aculeus
Acropora humilis
Acropora spathulata
Acropora microclados(strawberry shortcake version)

 

[Brew12]

On request, here's my current list of our Acropora species. All of them are not in the 10000L display, but I in the same system as that tank. Some we only have a couple of frags from, some 50 kilos
All species are my guesses. There are five more species that I don't even have guesses on yet.
I think 12 DNA samples on our Acropora were sent in this week for analysis in Germany. We hope they find some DNA to compare with earlier studies. If we get results we know our method is good for Acropora and can send more samples.
Our picture library is just for our own use, not very good pictures

Acropora yongei
Acropora austera
Acropora tumida
Acropora nana
Acropora echinata
Acropora formosa
Acropora turtusa, A gomezi
Acropoar formosa, Acropora yongei
Acropora selago
Acropora valida
Acropora hyacinthus
Acropora loisetteae
Acropora florida
Acropora carduus
Acropora efflorecens
Acropora tenuis
Acropora microclados (one version)
Acropora millepora
Acropora intermedia
Acropora aculeus
Acropora humilis
Acropora spathulata
Acropora microclados(strawberry shortcake version)

I had no idea there were that many types of acro's!

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

What I don't get is if there is a difference in the photons from a LED or Metal halide? When I try to thing logical, in my head it's makes sense that if you choose the right LED diod combination you can mimic a metal halide light. Now I only think of the spectrum, not the distribution. You want say 300-400nm, use a diod for that and add to the rest of the diods?

And looking through our meassurments it's quite clear that the peaks over 800nm is in the air, when we meassured in the water these peaks are mostly gone. That means a lot of energy just goes to waste(or to heat). Is the heat(or IR light) not something that whould be good to aviod?

When it comes to distribution I agree, a metal halide with a good reflector is hard to beat. I think that is something that needs to be improved a lot when it comes to LEDs. I've seen a LED fixtures with great and very even distribution of light, but thats not an aquarium LED.

It always hard when it comes to observations. We all have our preconcieved ideas of what's "best". And if you want a "coral growth competiti0n" between metal halides and LED, how do you compare them? Gram/day/watt?

I admit, starting a new large tank, the most "save" way to go IMO is to use large metal halides with good reflectors. But since we're trying to save energy and want to aviod changings 30 MH bulbs every 9 months, we are willing to try to go all LED. If thats a good idea, I don't know yet

I get back with some more corals and mangroves soon!

/ David

I remember 1983, the most or best spectrum was 6500k, with actinic bulbs, fluorescent.
MH couldn't come close in Kelvins then.
Times have a changed.

 

[Sallstrom]

I had no idea there were that many types of acro's!

Maybe there're just hybrids of the same species

 

[Sallstrom]

Today readings in the 10000L tank! ;Bookworm
KH - 6,25 at lunch - Salifert
KH - 6,10 in the afternoon
NO3 - 2,5 ppm - Salifert
PO4 - 0 ppm - Hanna LR

Now things start to speed up after the heat period when some lights were turned off or down.
Nitrate was about 6 ppm a month ago. Phosphate has been low for a while(a coworker kind of overdosed GFO this summer..;Happy).
KH has dropped from 7dKH to 6 the last weeks. Increased Core7 and the dose from the calcium reactor, so now it's stable at least. I think KH is slowly raising, but we'll see next week. Never any big changes Friday afternoon!

My guess is that the corals has started to grow again, taking up nutrients and KH. At the same time I've dosed some carbon source in the frag tank with the NPS to promote some bacteria growth. Not much, but maybe that carbon source has driven the phosphate really low the last week, I think some of the corals looks a bit dull in colour.
So lowered to 1/5 of the carbon source now. I still want some in that frag tank.

Now it's time for weekend!

 

[najer]

Enjoy your weekend.