A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[MnFish1]

It will be in the US that it is like that. Here it is not a synonym with "non-scientific" - rather the opposite. It is valid in ecology, biology and even in medicine - in Sweden as least. Further, I do not think that our Asian members have any problems with a holistic point of view, or many Americans either. But it is exactly here the entrenchment is - very well shown in this thread. I do not think that it is just a coincidence the it is rather many non-US citizens (count as a percentage) that have the same option about chemoprophylactic treatment and good husbandry as I do.

The fight for words is important – at R2R QT have been a synonym to chemoprophylactic treatment – we can see that in this thread when poster after poster claim that the resistance movement against chemoprophylactic treatment is against QT. QT is one thing, chemoprophylactic treatment is one thing – you can combining them into a chemoprophylactic QT if you want – but both methods can be used separately.


I have understood that even words like ecology are politically distinct in the US – it is not here. You can care for the ecology or give it give it a heck of a fist. (I´m sorry for mayby a wrong way of expression but my first translation was a little bit too rude :)) But everyone agrees with the word and its meaning (and importance)

When people do not like a point of view - it is easy to depict it as something other than what it is. But should we accept that?

Sincerely Lasse

I'm not arguing with you at all:).. and I don't think your post was rude at all. The United States is a big country. In one part a word can mean something positive - in another part it can mean something completely different. I actually dont mind holistic per se. I actually suggested 'chemical-free' or 'chemical avoidant' fish keeping (or something like that). Holistic seems so broad to me - I do not think (personally ) it has a negative connotation.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Good evening or morning depending on where you are.

Did any one mention comprehensive? Integrated, expansive

As Mnfish mentioned, as others also. Meaning depends on the individual beliefs and how they interpret a words intended description or connotation.

Holistic to some is look at the big or whole picture. Others it is unconventional or unorthodox. Hence our conundrum.

A lot of a words power comes from the source also. I will accept the word holistic treatment all day long if written by humblefish. A doctor whose office is in a strip mall next to a pawn shop and take out restaurant, maybe not so much.

Anyway, I am out of big words and my posts length is getting to dangerous territory for me so. If you look at a word with good intentions it can be interpreted as such. Just like 2 paths the choice is in the person. Left leads one way, right the other.

If we are looking for a word, did we come to a conclusion on the QT issue itself?

 

[Sallstrom]

Sorry to disturb in the important name discussion;)

I listen to a talk from the owner of this company(in the link) last year. He talked of treating and keeping healthy fish by offering different food depending on the fish and it's health. Of course, he talked about his products, but I like the idea behind it. I though that might be something that fits this thread.
https://www.bassleer.com/vissen/biofish-food/

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Sorry to disturb in the important name discussion;)

I listen to a talk from the owner of this company(in the link) last year. He talked of treating and keeping healthy fish by offering different food depending on the fish and it's health. Of course, he talked about his products, but I like the idea behind it. I though that might be something that fits this thread.
https://www.bassleer.com/vissen/biofish-food/

I think nutrition goes a long way in helping limit/prevent disease and keep fish healthy. I basically only will use 2 foods for my fish. LRS Food (10-20%) and New Life Spectrum (NLS) foods (80-90%).

The NLS pellets (primarily Thera A) is honestly great. I’d go so far to say that it saved one of my coral beauty angelfishes life a about 8 years ago. I was feeding Mysis, nori, and angelfish formula from ocean nutrition when I first got him and he started losing color and I believe got pop eye and ich (it was a long time ago, so I don’t really remember). I started feeding exclusively NLS Thera A and his health turned around, and ended up being one of the most beautiful Coral Beauty Angel’s I’ve ever seen (I may be biased though haha).

However in my last tank, once velvet got introduced, everything went downhill fast...

 

[Paul B]

I just came back from diving in the Caribbean with all the immune fish so I have to get back to this when I unpack and see my pictures in a day or so.
But none of them were sick. :D

 

[ca1ore]

Too many pages of posts for me to read though, so sorry if I repeat any points already made:

1. I have long wondered about the degree to which coral polyps eat various stages of parasites. Everything has something that eats it, so it stands to reason ich would too. Had a conversation with Terry Seagal years ago about the observation that ich management is easier/more practical in a reef tank than in a FOWLR. Why is that? Stands to reason that either something is eating them or there are less available settling surfaces.
2. I'm of two minds on QT. I do put all new fish though my QT tanks, but I only observe (unless something shows, then I treat). If uronema pops up in QT, as it did recently, no amount of feeding is likely to prevent a problem.
3. I think the term immunity gets regularly misused. An animal only has immunity if they have previously been exposed to a pathogen and developed antibodies (how a vaccine works). Healthy fish my be resistant to something like ich because they have a thicker slime coat than a less healthy fish, but it doesn't seem to me that it is actual immunity. So I fail to see how using observational QT somehow increase the likelihood of immuno-deficient fish - maybe blasting with a medication cocktail does, but not observation.
4. I use display water for my QT so that new fish are exposed to anything that is in the main tank.

 

[MnFish1]

Too many pages of posts for me to read though, so sorry if I repeat any points already made:

1. I have long wondered about the degree to which coral polyps eat various stages of parasites. Everything has something that eats it, so it stands to reason ich would too. Had a conversation with Terry Seagal years ago about the observation that ich management is easier/more practical in a reef tank than in a FOWLR. Why is that? Stands to reason that either something is eating them or there are less available settling surfaces.
2. I'm of two minds on QT. I do put all new fish though my QT tanks, but I only observe (unless something shows, then I treat). If uronema pops up in QT, as it did recently, no amount of feeding is likely to prevent a problem.
3. I think the term immunity gets regularly misused. An animal only has immunity if they have previously been exposed to a pathogen and developed antibodies (how a vaccine works). Healthy fish my be resistant to something like ich because they have a thicker slime coat than a less healthy fish, but it doesn't seem to me that it is actual immunity. So I fail to see how using observational QT somehow increase the likelihood of immuno-deficient fish - maybe blasting with a medication cocktail does, but not observation.
4. I use display water for my QT so that new fish are exposed to anything that is in the main tank.

Agree with all of it - would just add that there is 'innate immunity - the slime coat, various peptides, chemicals present in skin, gills, etc' that is not specific - it will try to fend off everything. Then you're right there is 'specific immunity' which is after exposure.

I agree with you about 'things' eating ich. I think that stocking density (which is usually a fair bit lower in a reef tank than a fowlr) may be part of the reason.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Also FWIW, I know at least a few Wholesaler's in California use copper in their tanks. I haven't check with them all, but I do know that SDC uses copper on their fish systems. TBH I'm going to assume most do.

 

[Katrina71]

I think nutrition goes a long way in helping limit/prevent disease and keep fish healthy. I basically only will use 2 foods for my fish. LRS Food (10-20%) and New Life Spectrum (NLS) foods (80-90%).

The NLS pellets (primarily Thera A) is honestly great. I’d go so far to say that it saved one of my coral beauty angelfishes life a about 8 years ago. I was feeding Mysis, nori, and angelfish formula from ocean nutrition when I first got him and he started losing color and I believe got pop eye and ich (it was a long time ago, so I don’t really remember). I started feeding exclusively NLS Thera A and his health turned around, and ended up being one of the most beautiful Coral Beauty Angel’s I’ve ever seen (I may be biased though haha).

However in my last tank, once velvet got introduced, everything went downhill fast...

@Hemmdog This is what I was just talking about. Thought you might enjoy the read.

 

[MnFish1]

Also FWIW, I know at least a few Wholesaler's in California use copper in their tanks. I haven't check with them all, but I do know that SDC uses copper on their fish systems. TBH I'm going to assume most do.

Key question - is it 'low dose copper' ie <.1 or therapeutic (or supratherputic) copper.

 

[fishybizzness]

And a random sheep that walked down my driveway!

 

[fishybizzness]

Wrong thread, sorry![emoji849]

 

[fishybizzness]

And no, I didn't quarantine him! Lol

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Key question - is it 'low dose copper' ie <.1 or therapeutic (or supratherputic) copper.

I never asked. Realistically anyone could probably call and ask different wholesalers to find out.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

Hello to all as I usually say.

Not much to add, just want to mention a few things. I promise my thread post limiter is active. ;Smuggrin

[Q]

I just want you all to know, while I might not be ready to completely "change my ways" As a member of the Reef Squad, I've decided to try to be more conscientious with my suggestions in the disease forum.

Particularly, offering ich-management threads/advice more frequently as a second option. Pushing nutrition more often, in conjunction with medications or otherwise. Offering nutrition as a second option to antibiotics in the case of "mild" secondary infections. And, trying to be more conservative with recommendations which include mixing medications.

Even though I'm not completely on board with running without QT and use of meds, I do think there is room to include more of both sides in the disease help forums. And @Lasse, I've noticed you've jumped in and have been doing the same to try to help - and I'm happy you took my invitation seriously :)

I noticed this in a few posts of your recently . Not sure if it my place to say, but I was glad to see nutrition being offered along with meds in you posts.

. But lately – it has been the sledgehammer directly – if not fully chemoprophylactic treatment and more ore less sterile tanks – do not come here and complain. Sometimes the answers come directly from the spinal cord – not noting the circumstances the original poster mention – not asking for a timeline of the special event. IMO – if you want to help in a certain situation (and save the world – oh excuse me – the fish)

Sincerely Lasse

Thank goodness someone can put my thoughts into words better than I (or is it me?) i was trying to go here before I got in trouble so to speak pages ago. I am still more speaking about new fish QT, but It still can applies to illness after the introduction.

Who can help me with my new tusk?

This looks familiar;Wideyed

 

[Matt Carden]

Too many pages of posts for me to read though, so sorry if I repeat any points already made:

1. I have long wondered about the degree to which coral polyps eat various stages of parasites. Everything has something that eats it, so it stands to reason ich would too. Had a conversation with Terry Seagal years ago about the observation that ich management is easier/more practical in a reef tank than in a FOWLR. Why is that? Stands to reason that either something is eating them or there are less available settling surfaces.
2. I'm of two minds on QT. I do put all new fish though my QT tanks, but I only observe (unless something shows, then I treat). If uronema pops up in QT, as it did recently, no amount of feeding is likely to prevent a problem.
3. I think the term immunity gets regularly misused. An animal only has immunity if they have previously been exposed to a pathogen and developed antibodies (how a vaccine works). Healthy fish my be resistant to something like ich because they have a thicker slime coat than a less healthy fish, but it doesn't seem to me that it is actual immunity. So I fail to see how using observational QT somehow increase the likelihood of immuno-deficient fish - maybe blasting with a medication cocktail does, but not observation.
4. I use display water for my QT so that new fish are exposed to anything that is in the main tank.

I believe #4 is what @Paul B has been stating since the release of his article. There is nothing wrong with having a separate tank that you've mixed in some of your DT water with live rock to hide in and for biological filtration.

 

[Paul B]

4. I use display water for my QT so that new fish are exposed to anything that is in the main tank.

This I agree with. If your fish is not immune to the water in your main tank, then get another hobby, maybe keeping goats. :cool:

 

[Paul B]

I tried very hard to collect these "ich Magnet" tangs so I could fresh water dip them after using prizapro, copper and stump remover.
I think some of them had black ich, pop eye and a severe case of Hemorrhoids. And it is hard to be sexy when you are constipated.

 

[WVNed]

I agree, and this is why I don't look at the discussion as if more or fewer fish could be saved one way over the other. There is no way to know. I've seen display tanks almost completely wiped out from those who practice prophylactic QT and those who don't.


And I appreciate you joining this discussion for exactly this reason. Are you doing something, simple or not, that is preventing you from having your tank wiped? Are you lucky? The more we can learn and document from people like you the better imo!

Probably not luck. Every time luck has had a chance it has stabbed me in the back.

I think it is flow. How well do you think parasites can swim? I have no idea. I always run high flow because I think it keeps all the bad looking goo and mats people complain about all the time under control. I don't turn it down at night either.
That new tank brown stuff. I ended it by putting a PP-15 in a 56 gallon tank running full blast for a few days. Broke it right up.
Many people here have all kinds of pumps in their tank but the programs they run produce way under rated flow. 2 gyre pumps on a controller in alternating gyre mode at 40% isn't much flow. They worry the sand will blow around. I use the 3-5mm stuff mixed with crushed coral. It doesn't blow around.
I have cyano. I am at the point where I can make it come and go by adjusting my light 5% and my flow 10%. Subtle changes that make a difference in hours. I am finding there are some fine lines that make or break how your tank is doing. I didn't know that before. I do now.

Perhaps it doesn't matter how many parasites are in your tank if only 2 or 3 can make it to a fish at any one time because of the current. Also the ones that do come out get swept to the things that eat them like the gorgonians.
You stress the tank doing maintenance or something. The pumps are off and the fish hide in the rocks and crevices. The next day you have ich.
This happened to me recently when the power was out. No flow for 10 hours. A few of my fish had spots the next day, especially the blue tang. I did nothing and they went away over the next 3 days.
In the sea the pumps are never off. Swim or die.

Early morning thoughts. @norfolkgarden liked one of my posts and made it pop up. I had been thinking on this for a few days. Sorry my brain is like lead some days.
I do pretty much the opposite of most things stated on here. I don't wait and push my tanks as hard as possible to get them where I want to go. I use additives like Vibrant and Nopox when needed and them stop them. I do water changes. Frequent big ones sometimes like 50-90% every 2 or 3 days if I think I need to. I don't do regular testing once a tank is going.
I broke my tank down yesterday, drained the water and moved it to make room for the new one. Today it looks the same. No damage done.
I find fish to be tough hardy animals if given clean water and fed well.

 

[KJoFan]

Probably not luck. Every time luck has had a chance it has stabbed me in the back.

I think it is flow. How well do you think parasites can swim? I have no idea. I always run high flow because I think it keeps all the bad looking goo and mats people complain about all the time under control. I don't turn it down at night either.
That new tank brown stuff. I ended it by putting a PP-15 in a 56 gallon tank running full blast for a few days. Broke it right up.
Many people here have all kinds of pumps in their tank but the programs they run produce way under rated flow. 2 gyre pumps on a controller in alternating gyre mode at 40% isn't much flow. They worry the sand will blow around. I use the 3-5mm stuff mixed with crushed coral. It doesn't blow around.
I have cyano. I am at the point where I can make it come and go by adjusting my light 5% and my flow 10%. Subtle changes that make a difference in hours. I am finding there are some fine lines that make or break how your tank is doing. I didn't know that before. I do now.

Perhaps it doesn't matter how many parasites are in your tank if only 2 or 3 can make it to a fish at any one time because of the current. Also the ones that do come out get swept to the things that eat them like the gorgonians.
You stress the tank doing maintenance or something. The pumps are off and the fish hide in the rocks and crevices. The next day you have ich.
This happened to me recently when the power was out. No flow for 10 hours. A few of my fish had spots the next day, especially the blue tang. I did nothing and they went away over the next 3 days.
In the sea the pumps are never off. Swim or die.

Early morning thoughts. @norfolkgarden liked one of my posts and made it pop up. I had been thinking on this for a few days. Sorry my brain is like lead some days.
I do pretty much the opposite of most things stated on here. I don't wait and push my tanks as hard as possible to get them where I want to go. I use additives like Vibrant and Nopox when needed and them stop them. I do water changes. Frequent big ones sometimes like 50-90% every 2 or 3 days if I think I need to. I don't do regular testing once a tank is going.
I broke my tank down yesterday, drained the water and moved it to make room for the new one. Today it looks the same. No damage done.
I find fish to be tough hardy animals if given clean water and fed well.

I love people like you, @WVNed you make reef keeping seem so easy and effortless. Like, you do this, do that, whatever seems to make sense to you and it all works out. I strive to be so effortless at the hobby some day. I've been in the hobby for...12 years and it's still not effortless. I've always been a late bloomer though. :rolleyes:

That said, I hadn't considered flow, or lack of as a management tool for parasites. But, it make some degree of sense.