A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[Mortie31]

I don't disagree. I'll give that some more thought. Both from a practical matter of how much work it would take and how it would be received by those who feel since every fish they receive is likely to be sick QT and treatment belong together.

I agree it’s a difficult one, but sometimes boundaries need changing to prevent things from becoming self fulfilling

 

[ngoodermuth]

I don't disagree. I'll give that some more thought. Both from a practical matter of how much work it would take and how it would be received by those who feel since every fish they receive is likely to be sick QT and treatment belong together.

Maybe: Quarantine and Fish Husbandry

Let the disease forum stay for diagnosing and treating acute illness, and the discussions for QT, various methods, and managing fish diseases through husbandry... be it’s own section.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

In the thread there should be advise on proper acclimation procedures that match the time fish have been in the bag. I honestly believe that many fish are sent on the disease roller coaster by a poor understanding of necessary techniques for acclimation. You can cause immediate death or onset of death by improper acclimation. Organ failure can be a result of poor acclimation procedures. I see lots of bad advise at the very beginning of the process that can hasten the process toward death for the fish. The fact that they survived the process does not indicate success. You may have damaged vital organs that in turn invite biological attack on the fish.

 

[Brew12]

Maybe: Quarantine and Fish Husbandry

Let the disease forum stay for diagnosing and treating acute illness, and the discussions for QT, various methods, and managing fish diseases through husbandry... be it’s own section.

Not a bad option at all. I do worry that it would increase the work load on Hotrocks, 4Fordfamily expecially, but also you and a few others who devote so much time since it would require having to monitor 2 forum sections instead of just one. But.. it gives me more to think about.
The end goal needs to be what is best for the R2R community and our fish.
It also has to be able to be accomplished.

 

[Mortie31]

In addition to suggestions above, maybe it’s time for the forum to put pressure somehow into the fish supply chain as it really sounds like it is a substantial issue especially in the US

 

[MnFish1]

In addition to suggestions above, maybe it’s time for the forum to put pressure somehow into the fish supply chain as it really sounds like it is a substantial issue especially in the US

+1000..... I know this sounds harsh - and potentially difficult - but - if I was going to an LFS - and they told me 'we dont use copper' I would test the water when I got it home - if there was 'low dose copper' - I would inform the owner - and depending on the response tell them until they change their behavior - I will not purchase from them again.

With an online supplier I would call first - ask the question - and test the water when I get the fish. If there is copper - I would report it and either ask for a credit - or just say thank - I will go to a different vendor.

FWIW - I have talked to 2 LFS - no one has even heard of low dose copper in their suppliers - and they do not use it in their stores. Petco for sure does not use low-dose copper. So - I would ask those that see all these problems honestly - where are these fish coming from?

When I asked at the LFS I go to exclusively - the owner said - there is no rationale for that - I've never heard of it. Seachem said the same thing. They said - more of a problem is people using too HIGH of a dose of copper - which they even state results in an immunosuppression - and a higher risk for non-copper treated diseases.

If we can't 'prove' that 'low-dose' copper is being widely practiced and by whom - we maybe should move it down on the list of potential reasons why we are seeing more problems with CI velvet etc. Having said this - I have bought all my fish from places that absolutely do not use it - nor their suppliers - so perhaps thats why I haven't had a problem

 

[Lasse]

In the thread there should be advise on proper acclimation procedures that match the time fish have been in the bag. I honestly believe that many fish are sent on the disease roller coaster by a poor understanding of necessary techniques for acclimation. You can cause immediate death or onset of death by improper acclimation. Organ failure can be a result of poor acclimation procedures. I see lots of bad advise at the very beginning of the process that can hasten the process toward death for the fish. The fact that they survived the process does not indicate success. You may have damaged vital organs that in turn invite biological attack on the fish.

The fish in my earlier post (together with around 80 more) was received today after around 48 hours of transport. They were unpacked, after a very short temperature acclimation - they was taken out from the bags and directly transported to the receiving system. The receiving system was pH adjusted by adding CO2 into the water to a pH of 6.9 to 7.0 just before the unpacking. After all fishes was unpacked and in its tanks. The CO2 regulation was stopped, and natural processes took out most of the CO2 and pH in the system rise again. Tomorrow it will be back at normal value. All tanks without light during work. It took 1.5 hours

Sincerely Lasse

 

[drstardust]

I agree. I like Natural Fish Health better than Natural Husbandry for exactly the reasons you list. Not that they aren't valid topics, but they aren't directly related to what I feel the target should be.

Sure, but just add in the word fish and it clears it up (at least for me)...Natural Fish Husbandry....but i’d lean toward the word health also because it’s more straight to the point of exactly what is being talked about, so that’s my vote too.

 

[MnFish1]

Who can help me with my new tusk?

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

Pretty Fish looks like he needs to adjust to new home.

 

[drstardust]

Beautiful tusk. Is something wrong with it?

 

[Punchanello]

As a newer reefer I feel like a prophylactic approach is the best recommendation for other new fish-keepers. In principle I agree that it is best for the fish and desirable to quarantine and observe and only treat with medications were disease is apparent and it is necessary. Often, though, disease can be tough to spot for someone like me without experience and the suffering caused by a full-blown outbreak from un-diagnosed disease is far worse than the prophylactic approach.

 

[HomeSlizzice]

Side note, I just picked up my equipment for my new QT set up.

20G long observation focused QT, and my assortment of clear bins for my variation of TTM. Plus i have the HOB filter, heaters, air pumps, sponge filters, etc that I need.

The only other piece of equipment I’m curious to pick up and try is the BRS dual reactor for running sediment filters in. Haven’t done it yet, and am in no rush.... but it’s on the list.

After 13 years of reefing, this is the first time I’ll be doing any sort of QT.

 

[Mortie31]

Often, though, disease can be tough to spot for someone like me without experience and the suffering caused by a full-blown outbreak from un-diagnosed disease is far worse than the prophylactic approach.

This is a tough one, and the dilemma a lot of newcomers are made to feel by the attitude to chemoprophylaxis that is driven in these forums and certainly a “full blown” outbreak is devastating, but until we know the long term affects of chemoquarantine I’m not sure long term if it’s better. If you observe for a month or 2 and your fish have no visible signs of parasites or disease then how do you feel then? Most new reefers are only dealing with small numbers of fish and according to numerous posts a lot of mistakes are made dosing copper etc as not only are they new to the hobby there new to quarantine using medication so potentially 2 points of failure. I think the observation route is far more realistic and in all fairness in the vast majority of cases CI and velvet are easy to spot, other diseases less so but IMO treating anything else is probably beyond most newbies and a lot of experienced reefers alike.. I’d advise all newcomers to read all the threads and make a balanced decision but also remember that quarantine means everything not just fish.

 

[Brew12]

In addition to suggestions above, maybe it’s time for the forum to put pressure somehow into the fish supply chain as it really sounds like it is a substantial issue especially in the US

This has been discussed, but it isn't going to happen. Not any time soon. It's not from a lack of want-to, either. As influential as R2R is, it isn't big enough. Probably best to leave it at that.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Who can help me with my new tusk?

Quit trying to stir the pot [emoji12]

 

[drstardust]

Quit trying to stir the pot [emoji12]

Loll ok I get it now [emoji854]

 

[ngoodermuth]

Loll ok I get it now [emoji854]

I thought he was just joking about the “spots” in the water column, but he started a topic regarding the tusk in the disease forum so now I’m not so sure...

 

[MnFish1]

Beautiful tusk. Is something wrong with it?

NO it was a joke from @Lasse 's post. @ngoodermuth Did I post it in the disease forum????? I meant to post it here. you can move it.

 

[MnFish1]

I thought he was just joking about the “spots” in the water column, but he started a topic regarding the tusk in the disease forum so now I’m not so sure...

SORRY - I meant for that to be here.:) and yes the fish is fine - well actually the fish is dead - he jumped out about a day later - by pushing a cover off the edges of the tank (somehow) - he was a great fish. BUT - the interesting thing is - that the reason I took that picture was because it illustrates not all fish behave the same way - and at first I did think something was wrong with it - and was going to post it after as an example.