A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[BeejReef]

So if we start a new forum section on how to safely keep fish without prophylactic treatment, what would we name it?

Organic Reefkeeping - Might give the impression we are raising them as a food source. ;Yuck
Holistic Fish Care - Better, but still not great. ;Bored
Natural Fish Care - Not much natural about a reef tank. ;Meh

Honestly.. I'm at a loss on this one. I can't think of a new section title that isn't misleading.

I'd be very interested in this topic. Undecided on preventative v Holistic/Natural, but, philosophically, it's appealing.

Seems to me you'd almost have to have a open discussion on what the criteria would be and build some sort of consensus before productive discussion could be had.
Straight away, you'd have to have agreement if you're talking about an "immune" system, or simply a protocol for observational qt w medication only upon confirmation of illness.

 

[WVNed]

I would call it Natural Husbandry.

You know. It isn't that I wouldn't treat a fish that needed it. I haven't had one that needed it in 30 or so years.
It went drugs, diatom filter, doesn't happen anymore.

 

[Brew12]

I would call it Natural Husbandry.

I like that!

 

[Softpaws]

Evolution is not a slow process during time, evolution is more a chain of fast short time revolutions. If the environmental will change drastically - evolution will happens instantly. An organism can always carry genes that not penalizes them - they can live with them - they give the organism no favour at that time - they just are there according to chaos theory. Suddenly - the environment change (we add copper in a certain level as an example) - the individuals carrying genes that get them sensitive for copper will die - the other lacking that gene or have a combination of genes that is a favour in that situation will survive and reproduce and their genes will spread into the population. Mutations (change in genes) happens mostly at reproduction too. Humans may reproduce itself only a few times during its lifespan - parasites have a much faster reproduction cycle (bacteries down to every 10 minutes or faster). Ich may have a short cycle - sometimes as short as 10 - 15 days - this favour a fast revolution if they carry genes favourable for that situation. Because of fast reproduction cycle – they will get a lot of mutations and the gen diversity can be huge. Note – a mutation that not will lead to any disadvantage in any ways will be left in the organisms gene pool and could be a favour in a new situation (and of cause a disadvantage too) An example - coyotes with genes that make them more used of humans will move into our cities survive but the one with genes that is the opposite will die cause lack of environment for their surviving. Further, the current loss of species all around the world is also a loss of gene pools that are lost for ever. This have led to a fast evolution at the species level.

Let us say it this way - if you by lottery tickets every 10 minutes - the chanse that you will get 1 billion win (surviving) is much, much likely compared with if you by a ticket every 20 year


As faster the reproduction cycle is - as faster will a species adapt to new environmental conditions. I.e. in this case - resistance occur. If there is 2 survivor (or even one in some cases) – their genes will be in the gene pool – the ones that dies – they are lost for ever. Death or surviving – that’s the most important evolution factor IMO

Sincerely Lasse


Of cause this is not the whole truth, it is a little bit more complicated but it is a way to understand how things fit together


Sincerely Lasse

Awesome response. I appreciate it. I’m a bit of a geek when it comes to these topics and I love the evolutionary theory especially with life cycles.

You made it clear for me why it’s possible. I understand now. Thanks again Lasse!

 

[ngoodermuth]

I haven't changed my ways, either. I feel like I am still in the information gathering phase. I don't know enough to make a switch away from full QT although I feel like I do know enough that I would try it if I were starting a new tank.
More than anything, I want to try and find out how to use R2R to gather more information along these lines, organize it, and make it more readily available. I don't feel anyone should ever give recommendations they aren't comfortable with. But I feel we do very little, as a forum, to help those who either can't or don't want to use meds prophylactically.

Not much information in yet, but it seems like a new forum section would be preferred over expanding out in this Fish Disease section.

I would never recommend something I’m not comfortable with, but I think it’s fine to let people know there are other options besides the one I’m offering... and then describe my personal recommendation otherwise. I don’t want to give off a “my way or the highway” vibe, in any case. Because I don’t think there is only one way to do anything in this hobby. I just tend to focus on the information that I’ve found most helpful... but, I’m trying to be more inclusive ;)

As far as a forum name, I think Holistic Fish Care is pretty self-explanatory

 

[BeejReef]

Treat Only When Needed :)

You can run a big TOWN qt in a 120 or a small TOWN in your 5g.
Your town is low stress and has all the comforts of home, but your town also has a good hospital (or can quickly be converted into one)

 

[HomeSlizzice]

What about a sub section of the disease form? Because a totally separate section might get confusing

 

[MnFish1]

I like natural husbandry.

The one thing about separating it out - is that - does that term 'shut out' people who might want to discuss 'unnatural husbandry' - ie. Disease forum is very general - if you QT you can discuss there - if you dont QT you can discuss there.

Though I dont agree with every QT protocol out there - It seems like its good to have someone (or more than one person) in the 'natural' forum explaining why 'we' might be wrong. Just like I sometimes go to the disease forum and give a different idea than what may be the current conventional wisdom.

I would suggest - if its going to be another forum - a good name would be Disease prevention without Medication' or something like that? But I still kind of like natural husbandry. Someone would need to define what 'that is'....

I.e there was a thread on TTM a couple months ago - where the OP felt it was basically the equivalent of a concentration camp - and killed more fish than it saved (dont want to debate that here - just that those thoughts are 'out there'.

 

[Lasse]

I just want you all to know, while I might not be ready to completely "change my ways" As a member of the Reef Squad, I've decided to try to be more conscientious with my suggestions in the disease forum.

Particularly, offering ich-management threads/advice more frequently as a second option. Pushing nutrition more often, in conjunction with medications or otherwise. Offering nutrition as a second option to antibiotics in the case of "mild" secondary infections. And, trying to be more conservative with recommendations which include mixing medications.

Even though I'm not completely on board with running without QT and use of meds, I do think there is room to include more of both sides in the disease help forums. And @Lasse, I've noticed you've jumped in and have been doing the same to try to help - and I'm happy you took my invitation seriously :)

I have tried to stay away from the disease threads. Not because I do not know anything about it but because I did not want to come into endless debates about chemoprophylactic QT or not. Till now - my thoughts have been that the hard core chemoprophylactic gang have done more good things than bad things. But lately – it has been the sledgehammer directly – if not fully chemoprophylactic treatment and more ore less sterile tanks – do not come here and complain. Sometimes the answers come directly from the spinal cord – not noting the circumstances the original poster mention – not asking for a timeline of the special event. IMO – if you want to help in a certain situation (and save the world – oh excuse me – the fish) – IMO – a timeline is necessary and the first thing to ask for. And it is impossible from a picture to have a 100 % diagnosis Look at this picture below. If I post that in the disease forum and ask if it is some disease – everyone know the answer

But here is the same fish – 1 minute before

By the way this fish together with this fish below was in Indonesia 48 hours ago – now in Gothenburg – now signs of “parasites that is on every fish nowadays” Perfect healthy fish as it is in 95 % of the imports I have seen.

I have seen threads that – when you are able to make a timeline with 95% safety shows a non- microbial agent – but first reaction is always – a disease – a parasite – do a full 76 dormant period with the DT and treat everything chemoprophylactic. I have seen threads when the poor hobbyist state that he/she did all of this – but the result was again – a total wipe out. The answer in the first post can be – you did it wrong. Please ask for a timeline first – before judgement.


Now we have this thread (article) – that MO should be sticky in the disease forum – I can always refer to this and therefore I can try to contribute in the disease threads without any of the active ones need to feel that they will be attacked. I´m to old to have a need to be a member of the A team all the time. When I´m wrong (happens at least once every 10 year :) :) ) – I´m wrong and can admit that without losing respect points – and if I do – who cares?


Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

What about a sub section of the disease form? Because a totally separate section might get confusing

Since the disease section is already a subforum I don't think we could create a new one underneath it.
I also feel this will take a blend of different topics if it is to be successful. Fish selection and stocking, nutrition, corals, inverts, filtration and probably equipment selection. Who knows what else. It won't work if it only concentrates on disease. If there are significant signs of disease then it likely should be treated with medications which is the specialty of the fish disease section.

 

[ngoodermuth]

Natural husbandry doesn’t sound specific to fish IMO. It could be considered Natural Husbandry to use chaeto instead of GFO for example. Or sea slugs vs. algaecides for nuisance algae. Peppermint shrimp vs. aiptasia-x. Etc, etc, etc....

 

[MnFish1]

I have tried to stay away from the disease threads. Not because I do not know anything about it but because I did not want to come into endless debates about chemoprophylactic QT or not. Till now - my thoughts have been that the hard core chemoprophylactic gang have done more good things than bad things. But lately – it has been the sledgehammer directly – if not fully chemoprophylactic treatment and more ore less sterile tanks – do not come here and complain. Sometimes the answers come directly from the spinal cord – not noting the circumstances the original poster mention – not asking for a timeline of the special event. IMO – if you want to help in a certain situation (and save the world – oh excuse me – the fish) – IMO – a timeline is necessary and the first thing to ask for. And it is impossible from a picture to have a 100 % diagnosis Look at this picture below. If I post that in the disease forum and ask if it is some disease – everyone know the answer

But here is the same fish – 1 minute before

By the way this fish together with this fish below was in Indonesia 48 hours ago – now in Gothenburg – now signs of “parasites that is on every fish nowadays” Perfect healthy fish as it is in 95 % of the imports I have seen.

I have seen threads that – when you are able to make a timeline with 95% safety shows a non- microbial agent – but first reaction is always – a disease – a parasite – do a full 76 dormant period with the DT and treat everything chemoprophylactic. I have seen threads when the poor hobbyist state that he/she did all of this – but the result was again – a total wipe out. The answer in the first post can be – you did it wrong. Please ask for a timeline first – before judgement.


Now we have this thread (article) – that MO should be sticky in the disease forum – I can always refer to this and therefore I can try to contribute in the disease threads without any of the active ones need to feel that they will be attacked. I´m to old to have a need to be a member of the A team all the time. When I´m wrong (happens at least once every 10 year :) :) ) – I´m wrong and can admit that without losing respect points – and if I do – who cares?


Sincerely Lasse

I was going to say spots on the glass...:)... but. And very nice fish:)

 

[ngoodermuth]

I have tried to stay away from the disease threads. Not because I do not know anything about it but because I did not want to come into endless debates about chemoprophylactic QT or not. Till now - my thoughts have been that the hard core chemoprophylactic gang have done more good things than bad things. But lately – it has been the sledgehammer directly – if not fully chemoprophylactic treatment and more ore less sterile tanks – do not come here and complain. Sometimes the answers come directly from the spinal cord – not noting the circumstances the original poster mention – not asking for a timeline of the special event. IMO – if you want to help in a certain situation (and save the world – oh excuse me – the fish) – IMO – a timeline is necessary and the first thing to ask for. And it is impossible from a picture to have a 100 % diagnosis Look at this picture below. If I post that in the disease forum and ask if it is some disease – everyone know the answer

But here is the same fish – 1 minute before

By the way this fish together with this fish below was in Indonesia 48 hours ago – now in Gothenburg – now signs of “parasites that is on every fish nowadays” Perfect healthy fish as it is in 95 % of the imports I have seen.

I have seen threads that – when you are able to make a timeline with 95% safety shows a non- microbial agent – but first reaction is always – a disease – a parasite – do a full 76 dormant period with the DT and treat everything chemoprophylactic. I have seen threads when the poor hobbyist state that he/she did all of this – but the result was again – a total wipe out. The answer in the first post can be – you did it wrong. Please ask for a timeline first – before judgement.


Now we have this thread (article) – that MO should be sticky in the disease forum – I can always refer to this and therefore I can try to contribute in the disease threads without any of the active ones need to feel that they will be attacked. I´m to old to have a need to be a member of the A team all the time. When I´m wrong (happens at least once every 10 year :) :) ) – I´m wrong and can admit that without losing respect points – and if I do – who cares?


Sincerely Lasse

I get the point you were making, but I don’t see anything but sand flying around in that first picture ;)

 

[MnFish1]

So - I usually pick posts to read just by clicking on 'today's posts'. I realized that I didnt really know where 'the disease forum' is. And after 10 minutes I still can't find it - can someone direct me? (I mean I can see the 'trail' above - I just mean from the main 'forums' page?

EDIT - I found it - way down by 'clownfish'. I never really realized that all of these topics existed - at least on my browser its not clear that they are all there. Is there a 'dropdown' somewhere? Im not sure they there is a 'reef discussion area' near the top of the page - but a 'saltwater aquarium forum' near the bottom. (and I think the disease section (like the chemistry section) should be moved up possibly (if thats an option).

 

[Brew12]

Natural husbandry doesn’t sound specific to fish IMO. It could be considered Natural Husbandry to use chaeto instead of GFO for example. Or sea slugs vs. algaecides for nuisance algae. Peppermint shrimp vs. aiptasia-x. Etc, etc, etc....

I agree. I like Natural Fish Health better than Natural Husbandry for exactly the reasons you list. Not that they aren't valid topics, but they aren't directly related to what I feel the target should be.

 

[Mortie31]

I personally think “quarantine protocols” should be one section and “when, if and how to medicate a sick fish” should be another... I don’t actually think anyone contributing to this thread wouldn’t treat a diseased/ infected fish. I think we need to separate the quarantine questions out of treatment, if a fish is ill its ill, wether or not it was quarantined is immaterial, people need help with a quick diagnosis and then a plan of action according to the particular disease/ parasite, which obviously for CI may have a choice of actions, but for the faster acting more virulent problems maybe individual stickies based on a consensus protocol, is needed... I also think a section based on “natural reefing” maybe of help as well, covering things as setting up a more natural reef, cycling, refugiums, variety of livestock, inverts etc

 

[Lasse]

I personally think “quarantine protocols” should be one section and “when, if and how to medicate a sick fish” should be another... I don’t actually think anyone contributing to this thread wouldn’t treat a diseased/ infected fish. I think we need to separate the quarantine questions out of treatment, if a fish is ill its ill, wether or not it was quarantined is immaterial, people need help with a quick diagnosis and then a plan of action according to the particular disease/ parasite, which obviously for CI may have a choice of actions, but for the faster acting more virulent problems maybe individual stickies based on a consensus protocol, is needed... I also think a section based on “natural reefing” maybe of help as well, covering things as setting up a more natural reef, cycling, refugiums, variety of livestock, inverts etc

+1000

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Brew12]

I don’t actually think anyone contributing to this thread wouldn’t treat a diseased/ infected fish. I think we need to separate the quarantine questions out of treatment, if a fish is ill its ill, wether or not it was quarantined is immaterial

The challenge with this isn't with everyone recommending treating a diseased or infected fish as much as it is the opposition to treating fish without signs of infection or disease. It would be hard to pull all of that out of the fish disease section imo.

 

[Mortie31]

The challenge with this isn't with everyone recommending treating a diseased or infected fish as much as it is the opposition to treating fish without signs of infection or disease. It would be hard to pull all of that out of the fish disease section imo.

That should come under quarantining as your not treating a diagnosed fish disease

 

[Brew12]

That should come under quarantining as your not treating a diagnosed fish disease

I don't disagree. I'll give that some more thought. Both from a practical matter of how much work it would take and how it would be received by those who feel since every fish they receive is likely to be sick QT and treatment belong together.