A Hypocrites View on Not Using Quarantine

[MaccaPopEye]

I don’t actually think anyone contributing to this thread wouldn’t treat a diseased/ infected fish. I think we need to separate the quarantine questions out of treatment, if a fish is ill its ill, wether or not it was quarantined is immaterial, people need help with a quick diagnosis and then a plan of action according to the particular disease/ parasite

I don't know if I agree with this. What you are describing is already what the disease forum is for (IMO). It does have threads on how to QT with the current "best practices" etc. but it is also where people would go if they need a quick diagnosis and a choice of actions. Yes, those 2 things could be separated but it's not quite what I thought this article / thread was about.

I thought the point of the article is not just for "what if" people can't/don't prophylactically treat fish in QT because the meds get banned, but also (and more importantly) "what if" those meds don't work anymore and what can we do to get away from using them. So NOT treating a diseased / infected fish is kind of the point? Discovering methods where fish can be kept healthy without needing to treat diseased / infected fish 90% of the time is maybe what the hobby needs to move towards?

I thought the goal here was more to have a forum section that explores the kind of reefing where there is more reliance on bolstering a fishes immune system rather than automatically treating diseased / infected fish. Of course this method of reefing doesn't by any means need to exclude medication in all cases, but I don't think treatment should always be the first option.

Personally, with my tank atm, I wouldn't treat a sick fish unless I felt I absolutely had to. I would certainly do other things to try and help it survive and beat whatever disease / infection it had but taking a fish out to treat and medicate it would be a last resort (and I can't easily get any medication aside from copper anyway due to where I live so I can't treat everything).

The challenge with this isn't with everyone recommending treating a diseased or infected fish as much as it is the opposition to treating fish without signs of infection or disease. It would be hard to pull all of that out of the fish disease section imo.

Maybe: Quarantine and Fish Husbandry

Let the disease forum stay for diagnosing and treating acute illness, and the discussions for QT, various methods, and managing fish diseases through husbandry... be it’s own section.

I think if this gets included with current QT methods it could get lost in the sea of people who do practise / support prophylactic treatment and it won't gain much traction. I think the current QT threads in the disease forum do a great job of outlining the current best practices for QT and they work well where they are.

If we do have a separate forum section I think discussions around non-medicated QT methods would be good, but it would just be a part of a wider forum section and would be different to the discussion about QT in the disease forum.

I like the idea of calling the sub-forum "Holistic Natural Reef Husbandry". Because it's not just about QT protocols, it's not just about if or when to use medications, it's not just about ich/velvet/other disease management, it's not just about how to set up a "natural" reef tank from the start, it's a truly holistic approach to keeping a tank without medication (or at the least only using medication when it absolutely must be used).

I think the word holistic really hits the nail on the head here :)

Holistic
- Philosophy
characterized by the belief that the parts of something are intimately interconnected and explicable only by reference to the whole

- Medicine
characterized by the treatment of the whole person, taking into account mental and social factors, rather than just the symptoms of a disease.

 

[Brew12]

Right now I am leaning towards Holistic Fish Care

I think it gives the implication that we are going to discuss every aspect of healthcare for a fish, including when to use medications. As to the actual use of those medications, that can stay in the fish disease section. Let the experts their keep their attention there.
Nutrition can be discussed in this section, but we can also refer much of that information to the Nutrition forum already on R2R.

Of course... no promise that I can actually make this happen, but I feel it is time to try. I feel there is value.

 

[Mortie31]

I thought the point of the article is not just for "what if" people can't/don't prophylactically treat fish in QT because the meds get banned, but also (and more importantly) "what if" those meds don't work anymore and what can we do to get away from using them. So NOT treating a diseased / infected fish is kind of the point? Discovering methods where fish can be kept healthy without needing to treat diseased / infected fish 90% of the time is maybe what the hobby needs to move towards?

I think we’re on the same page on this, I don’t want medication being used prophylactically on non diagnosed ill fish for a few reasons, but one that is pertinent to this discussion is that it may lead to resistance to these medications which means that when we really do have sick fish and really do need to medicate the drugs still work... Not treating will depend on the severity of the illness, but I don’t think we will ever get away from not medicating Ill fish, but by altering husbandry techniques we may reduce the frequency of ill fish and hence the need for them.. a bit like antibiotics in humans, we will still need them for serious infections and one day if we carry on using them like smarties they won’t work for us..

 

[Signalhead]

I think this is a balancing act. I support the concept of having a isolation or observation tank available for many reasons many of which are emergency related. Much like you would have a crate for a dog or a flashlight for your home. It is a tool to use when the brown stuff hits the whirly thing. Having said that I do not QT.

Primary reason why I personally believe a QT or process such as TTM is not for me is similar to taking antibiotics or medicine without a medical diagnosis (excluding shots / immunization of course). Medicating just because is why we are starting to see strains of viruses immune to treatments. It is also why we are starting to see signs of outbreaks we had cured in the US years ago although that is another story all together.

I just received a lavender and scopus tang from LA/DD on Friday. The only thing I do is acclimate them to my tanks salinity then after that I do a 5 to 15 minute fresh water dip using Mr. Fenners Methylene Blue instructions, rinse, then place into the display tank. The only fish that I have ever excluded from the baths would be a wrasse many years ago because I feel leopards are something that don't ship very well.

Now there is always a gotcha, a-ah moment, or otherwise side bar and that is simply not isolating or following a QT process is similar to playing Russian Roulette with a semi-automatic or gambling. Sooner or later Mother Nature is going to throw down the dead mans hand and you will lose everything. This is always in the back of my mind and comes back to treating fish like a pet and not a commodity.

So when threads like this come up it does make me check myself and what I do and that is when I ask myself:

Self...would you just drop a Clarion Angelfish into the display without any of these practices?

Edit: Forgot to say GJ @Brew12

What makes LA divers den different than any other store?

 

[User1]

What makes LA divers den different than any other store?

It probably doesn't. But that is the only source I buy from. The LFS around the Greater Sacramento area are horrible at keeping fish. Although there is one Pet Club that has very healthy SW fish I must say which is impressive and I buy there time to time. I get the whole QT, isolation, and other methods people use just as I use what works for me. I still think even what I do is rolling the dice if I was being honest. I sort of think of it being on a remote island and looking for love. If you didn't bring it chances are you are not going to find it, right?

We have tanks and there are no visible signs of parasites on the fish. No sickness, etc. I get they are immune or may be or have tolerance built up over time due to husbandry skills and feeding. The introduction of a new fish isn't going to have that. No different than if I bring a new puppy into the house or a baby. We give new dogs, cats, and babies immunization shots. Thus they suppress / are immune. So I think the various methods we discuss are flawed out of the gate and we are all playing Russian Roulette while trying our best to mitigate risk to the fish and our display tank or system. But that is just my opinion and I'm not going to say everyone else is wrong when maybe I am.

The bit about the Clarion Angelfish, or Peppermint, or some other highly sought after and rare fish that costs $5,000 dollars. Would we buy it and just acclimate and dump in our display tank? At the end of the day I should have just stayed out of the thread. I don't think I added any value.

 

[Signalhead]

Dont get me wrong, I just wanted to know for my own information. I never QT and never had a problem for 15 years..... until my first online purchase. Bamm!! Now I'm dealing with the consequences and paying the price. I see there's a bunch of online stores and they all claim to be the "best" and I was asking to see if LA/DD fallows a different protocol than other stores. Once again just wanted to know!

 

[MaccaPopEye]

It probably doesn't. But that is the only source I buy from. The LFS around the Greater Sacramento area are horrible at keeping fish. Although there is one Pet Club that has very healthy SW fish I must say which is impressive and I buy there time to time. I get the whole QT, isolation, and other methods people use just as I use what works for me. I still think even what I do is rolling the dice if I was being honest. I sort of think of it being on a remote island and looking for love. If you didn't bring it chances are you are not going to find it, right?

We have tanks and there are no visible signs of parasites on the fish. No sickness, etc. I get they are immune or may be or have tolerance built up over time due to husbandry skills and feeding. The introduction of a new fish isn't going to have that. No different than if I bring a new puppy into the house or a baby. We give new dogs, cats, and babies immunization shots. Thus they suppress / are immune. So I think the various methods we discuss are flawed out of the gate and we are all playing Russian Roulette while trying our best to mitigate risk to the fish and our display tank or system. But that is just my opinion and I'm not going to say everyone else is wrong when maybe I am.

The bit about the Clarion Angelfish, or Peppermint, or some other highly sought after and rare fish that costs $5,000 dollars. Would we buy it and just acclimate and dump in our display tank? At the end of the day I should have just stayed out of the thread. I don't think I added any value.

I think your post added value, when it comes to a topic as controversial and unexplored as this every experience can add value.

As for new additions (especially expensive ones) what about a "reverse" QT. An observation QT where you can get the fish fat and happy while introducing water from the DT to get it acclimated to any pathogens that are in the DT. This would help build up it's immunity over a month or two and then it could be added to the DT hopefully with a good resistance. Even better, after a reverse QT add it to the fuge for another couple of weeks to really let the new fish settle in before moving to the display.

 

[Brew12]

The bit about the Clarion Angelfish, or Peppermint, or some other highly sought after and rare fish that costs $5,000 dollars. Would we buy it and just acclimate and dump in our display tank? At the end of the day I should have just stayed out of the thread. I don't think I added any value.

I feel every view point adds value, especially one coming from someone with your experience.

 

[MnFish1]

It probably doesn't. But that is the only source I buy from. The LFS around the Greater Sacramento area are horrible at keeping fish. Although there is one Pet Club that has very healthy SW fish I must say which is impressive and I buy there time to time. I get the whole QT, isolation, and other methods people use just as I use what works for me. I still think even what I do is rolling the dice if I was being honest. I sort of think of it being on a remote island and looking for love. If you didn't bring it chances are you are not going to find it, right?

We have tanks and there are no visible signs of parasites on the fish. No sickness, etc. I get they are immune or may be or have tolerance built up over time due to husbandry skills and feeding. The introduction of a new fish isn't going to have that. No different than if I bring a new puppy into the house or a baby. We give new dogs, cats, and babies immunization shots. Thus they suppress / are immune. So I think the various methods we discuss are flawed out of the gate and we are all playing Russian Roulette while trying our best to mitigate risk to the fish and our display tank or system. But that is just my opinion and I'm not going to say everyone else is wrong when maybe I am.

The bit about the Clarion Angelfish, or Peppermint, or some other highly sought after and rare fish that costs $5,000 dollars. Would we buy it and just acclimate and dump in our display tank? At the end of the day I should have just stayed out of the thread. I don't think I added any value.

I wish these companies would explain - where they get their fish - how they handle the fish (QT, copper, etc before selling), etc. The interesting thing is - that - catching a clarion angel costs the same as catching any other angel (unless the person is specifically searching for a clarion angel). PS - I think you added value...

 

[MnFish1]

Dont get me wrong, I just wanted to know for my own information. I never QT and never had a problem for 15 years..... until my first online purchase. Bamm!! Now I'm dealing with the consequences and paying the price. I see there's a bunch of online stores and they all claim to be the "best" and I was asking to see if LA/DD fallows a different protocol than other stores. Once again just wanted to know!

I had the same experience....

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I wish these companies would explain - where they get their fish - how they handle the fish (QT, copper, etc before selling), etc. The interesting thing is - that - catching a clarion angel costs the same as catching any other angel (unless the person is specifically searching for a clarion angel). PS - I think you added value...

I guess we are pretty lucky in Aus when it comes to this aspect of tbe hobby. The vast majority of our supply chain is very short (collector -> LFS -> customer) so 95%+ of LFS will be able to tell you exactly which collector a fish came from, roughly when it was caught, how it was caught and how it has been treated since (and also tell you the location the fish came from). The only exception to this is fish that are not found in the indo-pacific like the yellow tang.

I actually don't have a LFS (the closest one is around 3400km away) but I am amazingly lucky and have an awesome collector that ships world wide 10min away. So my supply chain is either direct from the collector or direct from the ocean when I have time to collect fish or coral myself.

Yet I still got velvet and CI.

 

[MnFish1]

Yet I still got velvet and CI.

Hopefully copper or CP cured you:):):):):):)

 

[rkpetersen]

Personal opinion - Don't apply 'holistic', 'natural', 'organic', 'gluten-free', 'non-gmo', or any similar label to a new forum subsection.
How about Non-Chemotherapeutic Fish Management, or something along those lines? Says what it is, without the social/political connotations/bias.

 

[MnFish1]

Personal opinion - Don't apply 'holistic', 'natural', 'organic', 'gluten-free', 'non-gmo', or any similar label to a new forum subsection.
How about Non-Chemotherapeutic Fish Management, or something along those lines? Says what it is, without the social/political connotations/bias.

@Brew12 and I discussed this there are so many words that have 'negative connotations'

 

[Michael Gilbreath]

I live were I can't buy fish or corals online so I make a 2hr drive and search stores in Reno I will go to every Petco, LFS there is I will look over every fish if its one I want I will watch it check fins and see if all looks good I will buy it bring it home put in bucket add my tank water for a few mins. Then in the tank it goes been doing it this way since I started so doing it this way again I have Clarkii Clown. Sailfin tang. Chromis's, firefishs, strawberry, Lawnmower. and 2 goldenhead gobys in my tank all or nice and health. except Lawmower needs to go on diet lol. I don't dose or add a chemicals never have since tank is only 5 months old I have my alge problems but the last a week or so and clear up. I just think its better not to mess with my tank more then waterchanges I let things go there way. I trust if I just do basics and not go overboard with trying to keep up with all the new stuff my tank will take care of its self. This works for me not saying it will work for everybody but it works for me.

 

[Lasse]

Personal opinion - Don't apply 'holistic', 'natural', 'organic', 'gluten-free', 'non-gmo', or any similar label to a new forum subsection.
How about Non-Chemotherapeutic Fish Management, or something along those lines? Says what it is, without the social/political connotations/bias.

I can´t understand how every describing word can be social/political controversial if nobody that does not like the meaning of the word tries to make it that way and that we others buy it.

Holistic is a very good word to use in this context because it is exactly what it is about – to look at the whole picture. The only ones that will be offended of this word would probably be those that do not have a holistic point of view – they do not look at the whole picture with other words :).


Sincerely Lasse

 

[MaccaPopEye]

I can´t understand how every describing word can be social/political controversial if nobody that does not like the meaning of the word tries to make it that way and that we others buy it.

Holistic is a very good word to use in this context because it is exactly what it is about – to look at the whole picture. The only ones that will be offended of this word would probably be those that do not have a holistic point of view – they do not look at the whole picture with other words :).


Sincerely Lasse

Agreed 100% mate.

The definition of holistic very much applies here.

 

[MnFish1]

I can´t understand how every describing word can be social/political controversial if nobody that does not like the meaning of the word tries to make it that way and that we others buy it.

Holistic is a very good word to use in this context because it is exactly what it is about – to look at the whole picture. The only ones that will be offended of this word would probably be those that do not have a holistic point of view – they do not look at the whole picture with other words :). PS I'm not saying that psychotherapy or chiropractic are quackery. They are just parts of holistic medicine.

There is another term - complementary medicine - which uses holistic and standard techniques maybe that is an idea.


Sincerely Lasse

I'm not sure every word is negative - but holistic has a negative connotation in medical circles (some). As it can be considered to contain somethings that people say are quackery or border lining thereon. Using the 'strict' definition is fine - but it has other meanings as well. For example we will not be doing psychotherapy or chiropractic on our fish...:)

 

[Brew12]

Holistic is a very good word to use in this context because it is exactly what it is about – to look at the whole picture. The only ones that will be offended of this word would probably be those that do not have a holistic point of view – they do not look at the whole picture with other words :).

I do understand his point. Unfortunately, "Holistic" is becoming synonymous with "non-scientific". Right now I can't think of a better term to use, but his concern is valid.
The stubborn side of me is still saying to use it as a way of fighting back against improper use of the word.

 

[Lasse]

I do understand his point. Unfortunately, "Holistic" is becoming synonymous with "non-scientific". Right now I can't think of a better term to use, but his concern is valid.
The stubborn side of me is still saying to use it as a way of fighting back against improper use of the word.

It will be in the US that it is like that. Here it is not a synonym with "non-scientific" - rather the opposite. It is valid in ecology, biology and even in medicine - in Sweden as least. Further, I do not think that our Asian members have any problems with a holistic point of view, or many Americans either. But it is exactly here the entrenchment is - very well shown in this thread. I do not think that it is just a coincidence the it is rather many non-US citizens (count as a percentage) that have the same option about chemoprophylactic treatment and good husbandry as I do.

The fight for words is important – at R2R QT have been a synonym to chemoprophylactic treatment – we can see that in this thread when poster after poster claim that the resistance movement against chemoprophylactic treatment is against QT. QT is one thing, chemoprophylactic treatment is one thing – you can combining them into a chemoprophylactic QT if you want – but both methods can be used separately.


I have understood that even words like ecology are politically distinct in the US – it is not here. You can care for the ecology or give it give it a heck of a fist. (I´m sorry for mayby a wrong way of expression but my first translation was a little bit too rude :)) But everyone agrees with the word and its meaning (and importance)

I'm not sure every word is negative - but holistic has a negative connotation in medical circles (some). As it can be considered to contain somethings that people say are quackery or border lining thereon. Using the 'strict' definition is fine - but it has other meanings as well. For example we will not be doing psychotherapy or chiropractic on our fish...:)

When people do not like a point of view - it is easy to depict it as something other than what it is. But should we accept that?

Sincerely Lasse