A Simple Fix for Low PH

[Lasse]

I have similar figures. To now - I have not seen any problems with that. In summertime (cold climate - not high summer temperatures) when all doors is open - I skip the scrubber. During winter (closed doors) - I use the scrubber but maybe I´ll take an outside suction point later one. To prolong the lifetime of the scrubber - I use to soak a little water in the media every second day when it does not work very well. I also use a reversed refugium.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[jeffrey holloway]

Yes, tried that first. Averaged low 7.6 and high of 8.21. Guess we have bad air here on the Mississippi Gulf coast. You mentioned air filtering carbon, any ideas what I'm looking for. would lowes or homedepot have it. Thanks

 

[CenlaReefer]

I did this very thing on my skimmer, I didn't notice any real change on my PH. Ph still runs low, most of the time won't go over 8.1

Most people who struggle with low PH would love to have the tank stay at 8.0 or above. I use a large air pump under my house to send air into my skimmer. My old house is built on pier and beam construction and the back of the home is about 4.5 feet off the ground.

 

[CenlaReefer]

I was going to do a build-thread for this as well, but you've already covered most of what I was going to talk about anyways. Here's the pics of the carbon filter I made for the end of my outside line;
Materials:
I had a SS barb left over from brew supplies, else I would have used plastic. I cut up a filter sock that I didn't need (wrong size) for the filter media. You could skip the thread-tape; no need for that to be sealed.

Prevent carbon being sucked up into the line with some filter material:

Assemble the filter body:

Seal off one end with filter material and zip-tie:

Pack the "T" with carbon and seal off the other end:

That's attached to the outside end of my air line. We have our house sprayed for bugs once a month, so this filter was critical to being able to pull in outside air for me.

That is as very simple idea. I like it.

 

[jsker]

I wonder if my PH is to high after running an co2 scrubber thru my skimmer. my low is 8.17 and high is 8.44, any thoughts? I currently run the airline tubing from ouside into the scrubber into the skimmer. I need to search the net for what would be consider to high.

In @Randy Holmes-Farley linked article 7.8 to 8.5 i

 

[jsker]

I have similar figures. To now - I have not seen any problems with that. In summertime (cold climate - not high summer temperatures) when all doors is open - I skip the scrubber. During winter (closed doors) - I use the scrubber but maybe I´ll take an outside suction point later one. To prolong the lifetime of the scrubber - I use to soak a little water in the media every second day when it does not work very well. I also use a reversed refugium.

Sincerely Lasse

Thank you Lasse

 

[jbphelps]

If the CO2 level is high enough in the house to adversely effect the aquarium then it's doing the same to your health. Our homes have become tighter with less infiltration causing very high levels of CO2 and VOC's to accumulate. The answer to the problem is to reduce the levels in the home. The best way is to talk to your HVAC contractor about an ERV (energy recovery ventilator) or a HRV (heat recovery ventilator). Which one will depend on your climate location.

 

[Saltine]

@jsker I'm also from Central FL, and been battling too much C02 in my house. I'm concerned about running a line outside due to mosquito spraying that occurs every few weeks, will carbon absorb this type of thing? What have you done if anything?

Thanks!
Salt

 

[steveb]

@jsker I'm also from Central FL, and been battling too much C02 in my house. I'm concerned about running a line outside due to mosquito spraying that occurs every few weeks, will carbon absorb this type of thing? What have you done if anything?

Thanks!
Salt

ditto -- same deal here in Houston...

was looking at this...
https://www.buyactivatedcharcoal.co...ed-charcoal-coconut-4x8-mesh-acid-washed.html

 

[jsker]

@jsker I'm also from Central FL, and been battling too much C02 in my house. I'm concerned about running a line outside due to mosquito spraying that occurs every few weeks, will carbon absorb this type of thing? What have you done if anything?

Thanks!
Salt

Sound like the CO2 scrubber is a better fit for you:)

 

[nervousmonkey]

I wonder if my PH is to high after running an co2 scrubber thru my skimmer. my low is 8.17 and high is 8.44, any thoughts? I currently run the airline tubing from ouside into the scrubber into the skimmer. I need to search the net for what would be consider to high.

I know this an old response and you've probably realized that 8.2 to 8.4 is the perfect pH range for your tank. But you are changing things in your system by running such a long line through your skimmer, while also scrubbing out CO2... Explained below but just concepts are explained so anyone could decide what to do here. However my advice is to choose one over the other, but not both. I like the CO2 scrubber, but that's just me.

I have used CO2 scrubbers for years with great effect on pH. I have run a line to the outside as well, but there was definitely a change in the dynamics of my skimmer at the time (Reef Octo initially, now Deltec). So I added a Luft pump to the outside line intake so it could push air in under pressure (since that's the point of a Luft pump) and that changed skimmer dynamics as well. I'm sure I could have adjusted the skimmer pump to deal with the higher pressure from the Luft, however I didn't fool with that.

Either way, I would recommend pressurizing a long run of airline, or increasing the diameter of hosing to at least 1/2 " as @Downbeach already stated, and additionally I would add the super flexible thick silicone tubing like the kind used on return pumps for silencing/dampening vibrations, link here to BRS. No thinner than 1/2" though. Skimmers are pretty precisely designed now, pumps matched pretty exactly to skimmer body, height, circumference, neck length, type of impeller used etc., so any change in airflow dynamics has a resultant effect on the entire skimmer, whether we notice or not. Each kind of skimmer as well have skimmate profiles that remove specific amounts and types of DOC's, and as a result skimmate profiles trend downwards (in terms of ability to remove very specific percentages of DOC's) with airflow dynamics changes that are made to it.

There is an upside to outside air over an air scrubber though, meaning CO2 is used by zooxanthellae in some instances for photosynthesis, while other corals can use bicarb directly (reference article written by Dana Riddle here). In any case, scrubbing CO2 out of a tank may result in slower coral growth rates or create the need to raise levels of alkalinity or bicarb to much higher levels for direct use. But that is another thread altogether.

Last point on this topic I promise. It is just as important to recognize the importance, or not, of the source of dissolved oxygen levels in our tanks. Outside air will not cause an appreciable increase of dissolved O2 in our tanks, although outside air does cause a very appreciable decrease in CO2, compared to air internal to the house. This varying difference in dissolved O2 vs. CO2 levels is simply proportionate to the concentrations of the two gasses in atmospheric air; 20.95% vs. 0.04%, respectively. In essence by using outside air, we don't change the amount of dissolved O2 in tank, but we do appreciably change the amount of CO2. O2 inside our homes doesn't drop by enough to keep our skimmers from saturating our tanks with dissolved O2. Another thread topic though.

Just wanted to drop in and thank @jsker for the post/article!
I run CO2 scrubbers to keep skimmer function similar to the way it was designed, and keep some windows open to allow fresh air in as well while switching the CO2 scrubber either off or allowing dual intakes into one line so not to strip my tank of CO2 needed for proper coral photosynthesis and growth. Hope that long post didn't bore you all to sleep. :eek:

 

[CenlaReefer]

If the CO2 level is high enough in the house to adversely effect the aquarium then it's doing the same to your health. Our homes have become tighter with less infiltration causing very high levels of CO2 and VOC's to accumulate. The answer to the problem is to reduce the levels in the home. The best way is to talk to your HVAC contractor about an ERV (energy recovery ventilator) or a HRV (heat recovery ventilator). Which one will depend on your climate location.

I like this idea. I will have to research ERV and HRV systems. I would love it if AC / heating systems could use sensors to tell when outside air temp and humidity (especially) is ideal to switch air intake to outside. That can fluctuate throughout the day. Still, I wonder if pumping lots of fresh air into the aquarium using a 1/2" line per the most recent post could help not only the aquarium but the air quality in our homes as well. In other words, could doing this increase the oxygen levels in our homes.

 

[CenlaReefer]

Jeffery, I know this an old response and you've probably realized that 8.2 to 8.4 is the perfect pH range for your tank. But you are changing things in your system by running such a long line through your skimmer, while also scrubbing out CO2... Explained below but just concepts are explained so anyone could decide what to do here. However my advice is to choose one over the other, but not both. I like the CO2 scrubber, but that's just me.

I have used CO2 scrubbers for years with great effect on pH. I have run a line to the outside as well, but there was definitely a change in the dynamics of my skimmer at the time (Reef Octo initially, now Deltec). So I added a Luft pump to the outside line intake so it could push air in under pressure (since that's the point of a Luft pump) and that changed skimmer dynamics as well. I'm sure I could have adjusted the skimmer pump to deal with the higher pressure from the Luft, however I didn't fool with that.

Either way, I would recommend pressurizing a long run of airline, or increasing the diameter of hosing to at least 1/2 " as @Downbeach already stated, and additionally I would add the super flexible thick silicone tubing like the kind used on return pumps for silencing/dampening vibrations, link here to BRS. No thinner than 1/2" though. Skimmers are pretty precisely designed now, pumps matched pretty exactly to skimmer body, height, circumference, neck length, type of impeller used etc., so any change in airflow dynamics has a resultant effect on the entire skimmer, whether we notice or not. Each kind of skimmer as well have skimmate profiles that remove specific amounts and types of DOC's, and as a result skimmate profiles trend downwards (in terms of ability to remove very specific percentages of DOC's) with airflow dynamics changes that are made to it.

There is an upside to outside air over an air scrubber though, meaning CO2 is used by zooxanthellae in some instances for photosynthesis, while other corals can use bicarb directly (reference article written by Dana Riddle here). In any case, scrubbing CO2 out of a tank may result in slower coral growth rates or create the need to raise levels of alkalinity or bicarb to much higher levels for direct use. But that is another thread altogether.

Last point on this topic I promise. It is just as important to recognize the importance, or not, of the source of dissolved oxygen levels in our tanks. Outside air will not cause an appreciable increase of dissolved O2 in our tanks, although outside air does cause a very appreciable decrease in CO2, compared to air internal to the house. This varying difference in dissolved O2 vs. CO2 levels is simply proportionate to the concentrations of the two gasses in atmospheric air; 20.95% vs. 0.04%, respectively. In essence by using outside air, we don't change the amount of dissolved O2 in tank, but we do appreciably change the amount of CO2. O2 inside our homes doesn't drop by enough to keep our skimmers from saturating our tanks with dissolved O2. Another thread topic though.

Just wanted to drop in and thank @jsker for the post/article!
I run CO2 scrubbers to keep skimmer function similar to the way it was designed, and keep some windows open to allow fresh air in as well while switching the CO2 scrubber either off or allowing dual intakes into one line so not to strip my tank of CO2 needed for proper coral photosynthesis and growth. Hope that long post didn't bore you all to sleep. :eek:

I would like to see some pics if someone has tried this setup using the larger diameter tubing.

 

[jsker]

Jeffery, I know this an old response and you've probably realized that 8.2 to 8.4 is the perfect pH range for your tank. But you are changing things in your system by running such a long line through your skimmer, while also scrubbing out CO2... Explained below but just concepts are explained so anyone could decide what to do here. However my advice is to choose one over the other, but not both. I like the CO2 scrubber, but that's just me.

I have used CO2 scrubbers for years with great effect on pH. I have run a line to the outside as well, but there was definitely a change in the dynamics of my skimmer at the time (Reef Octo initially, now Deltec). So I added a Luft pump to the outside line intake so it could push air in under pressure (since that's the point of a Luft pump) and that changed skimmer dynamics as well. I'm sure I could have adjusted the skimmer pump to deal with the higher pressure from the Luft, however I didn't fool with that.

Either way, I would recommend pressurizing a long run of airline, or increasing the diameter of hosing to at least 1/2 " as @Downbeach already stated, and additionally I would add the super flexible thick silicone tubing like the kind used on return pumps for silencing/dampening vibrations, link here to BRS. No thinner than 1/2" though. Skimmers are pretty precisely designed now, pumps matched pretty exactly to skimmer body, height, circumference, neck length, type of impeller used etc., so any change in airflow dynamics has a resultant effect on the entire skimmer, whether we notice or not. Each kind of skimmer as well have skimmate profiles that remove specific amounts and types of DOC's, and as a result skimmate profiles trend downwards (in terms of ability to remove very specific percentages of DOC's) with airflow dynamics changes that are made to it.

There is an upside to outside air over an air scrubber though, meaning CO2 is used by zooxanthellae in some instances for photosynthesis, while other corals can use bicarb directly (reference article written by Dana Riddle here). In any case, scrubbing CO2 out of a tank may result in slower coral growth rates or create the need to raise levels of alkalinity or bicarb to much higher levels for direct use. But that is another thread altogether.

Last point on this topic I promise. It is just as important to recognize the importance, or not, of the source of dissolved oxygen levels in our tanks. Outside air will not cause an appreciable increase of dissolved O2 in our tanks, although outside air does cause a very appreciable decrease in CO2, compared to air internal to the house. This varying difference in dissolved O2 vs. CO2 levels is simply proportionate to the concentrations of the two gasses in atmospheric air; 20.95% vs. 0.04%, respectively. In essence by using outside air, we don't change the amount of dissolved O2 in tank, but we do appreciably change the amount of CO2. O2 inside our homes doesn't drop by enough to keep our skimmers from saturating our tanks with dissolved O2. Another thread topic though.

Just wanted to drop in and thank @jsker for the post/article!
I run CO2 scrubbers to keep skimmer function similar to the way it was designed, and keep some windows open to allow fresh air in as well while switching the CO2 scrubber either off or allowing dual intakes into one line so not to strip my tank of CO2 needed for proper coral photosynthesis and growth. Hope that long post didn't bore you all to sleep. :eek:

Thank you for the feedback and information. I like it:cool:

 

[nervousmonkey]

If the CO2 level is high enough in the house to adversely effect the aquarium then it's doing the same to your health. Our homes have become tighter with less infiltration causing very high levels of CO2 and VOC's to accumulate. The answer to the problem is to reduce the levels in the home. The best way is to talk to your HVAC contractor about an ERV (energy recovery ventilator) or a HRV (heat recovery ventilator). Which one will depend on your climate location.

Man, this is the best answer of them all. This would help a lot including personal!

 

[jsker]

Man, this is the best answer of them all. This would help a lot including personal!

I total agree. It kind of one of the reason to have a CO2 alarm in the house. I was reading an article about the effects of CO2 in the house and the minor effect. We are replacing the HVAC soon and that will be one of the question I will ask now.

 

[nervousmonkey]

I would like to see some pics if someone has tried this setup using the larger diameter tubing.

I don't know if @Downbeach has any pictures, but sounds like he ran the 1/2" line with his friend outside. I believe that I have a roll of the 1/2" silicone tubing somewhere, or 3/4", that I bought for this reason exactly, and can recreate how I would do it, but my situation is unique, as I work from home and have the Red Sea in my office, the JBJ in the entrance way, so I don't have to run airline very far, and in the case of my office, I typically just keep the door shut at night and the windows all open. In any case, I can take some pictures with the silicone tubing if you'd like. The stuff can kink easily, so precautions have to be taken, such as sliding a spring in the tubing to keep it open and bent for a 90 degree angle, 45, and so on. Your setup obviates the need for larger tubing though @Eye Candy Corals , since you are using a pump to pressurize the air tubing on the outside, so you are probably seeing increased bubbles in your skimmer, which can always be dialed back down if needed, even with a small ball valve from two little fishies if that is all that's done. As long as the airline doesn't cause such a negative draw on the skimmer pump, the skimmer will typically be OK. That cannot be fixed, while pressurizing airflow to the skimmer pump can definitely be corrected. Happens all the time with ozone users that inject O3 into the skimmer by adding a pressure rated air pump like the Luft, then through a canister of desiccant media, then through the ozone generator, then to the skimmer.
Let me know if you'd like to see pictures of how I'd recreate it, or let's wait to see someone that has it up and running.
Hope that the post helps someone that is trying to alleviate low pH from high CO2, at least in understanding options and what they mean for the tank itself. ;)

 

[nervousmonkey]

I total agree. It kind of one of the reason to have a CO2 alarm in the house. I was reading an article about the effects of CO2 in the house and the minor effect. We are replacing the HVAC soon and that will be one of the question I will ask now.

This is the best solution, although there are some interesting points brought up by Dana that are making me rethink stripping my water of CO2... It's interesting that some corals have and use carbonic anhydrase outside of their cell walls, allowing them to convert bicarbonate into CO2 for intracellular transport for ease of use (photosynthesis) by the zooxanthellae, while other corals with clade 13 zoox's prefer to use CO2 directly instead of bicarb (Condy anemones, Porites and Montastrea were named corals in Dana's article), so the presence of CO2 in a tank can be very helpful for photosynthesis, and in others, the only way to correct systems with low CO2 values is to increase the alkalinity to help corals that use carbonic anhydrase to convert HCO3 into CO2 for photosynthesis. Great discussion thread you started jsker! I am learning a lot on this thread!

 

[Downbeach]

Other than the picture I posted of the DIY canister with the 1/2" (ID) tubing I don't have any pictures of the project. I can tell you that the run was about 20', and the canister was fully loaded with GAC, and there was plenty of air for the skimmer. In this case, a hole was drilled through the side of the house, sealed with silicone, and the end covered with an strainer from and old HOB filter I had laying around. I know of another case where we just opened a window, used a piece of styrofoam with a large enough hole for the tubing to pass through, and installed a coupel angle brackets to keep the window closed, more for security than anything else. When I used one as a CO2 scrubber(same picture), my run was only about 6', but I loaded the soda lime in the canister like you would for DI resin, tamping it down tightly to prevent any channeling, and didn't notice any loss of air volume. If there were any "restrictions" in the air flow it would have come from the 1/2" (OD) tubing I used as fittings (black in picture) from the BRS reactors I had left over from those units. I used an old foam filter from a MJ PH for the opening in the end, to keep critters out.

 

[nervousmonkey]

Yeah, great points Downbeach, as long as the run of airline to the outside isn't very long, there is only a minor impact to skimmers that should be unnoticeable and should also be non-discernible as well, in terms of performance and efficiency.