Abandoning Kalkwasser

[shred5]

Thank you. My understanding was that surface precipitation/grime was inevitable in kalkwasser solutions (could be wrong; definitely not mixing optimally). I’m dosing at the low end for calcium hydroxide using the BRS website (1/2 tsp per gallon I recall).
I like the idea of using a multi-head doser and trickling kalkwasser (or maybe just sodium hydroxide) alongside 2 part.

My naive understanding of kalk stirrers is that they can be costly and add more maintenance / specialization in the long run (things I’m trying to minimize as this is a work tank).

Cheers and thx for the thoughts.

I am not sure the calculator you are using but I would guess that is for mixing the kalk. But saturated kalk is saturated Kalk. It is the clear water above the kalk layer that settled.
As for adding the amount to the aquarium is different and the reason I do not like using evaporation. This goes for most anything you add two part, kalk etc. Calculators are good for going from point A to point B but after that demand is what determines how much is actually added. If you have more stony corals or coral line demand will be higher and more is needed.

If you have less you need to add less.
If you add two much two part or kalk you can get precipitation and calcification. I am sure Randy can explain it better. You add to much of anything it has to go somewhere if it is not being used up.

 

[TexAgReefer]

Looks nice. Make sure that settles before dosing. Best if you are only dosing the clear water above and not when the water is milky.

Yep. I stir it 4 times a day with a 2 hr settle period after the stir before it doses again.

 

[Ross Petersen]

Yeah I've been dosing 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of top off water... but really need to let it settle more before turning the pump back on. I suspect that will help to mitigate the Tunze optical sensor from clouding over, in addition to having the ATO line feed into the first chamber in the sump instead of the return chamber where the sensors are.

I have the Tunze pump ~2'' off the bottom to lessen the risk of sucking up precipitates.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, many people assume that kalk stirrers deliver saturated limewater. Then when they measure thee potency, they find it s not true.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Just wanted to revive this old valuable thread. Lots of experienced reefers dose kalkwasser in the ATO so I am trying to replicate as a newer reefer.

Within 3 months my Tunze 3155 optical sensor failed due to grime on the sensor which almost resulted in my Vectra return pump running dry. This, and now reading that the dosing line can clog, ATO pumps fail more quickly, and so on has me thinking 2 part might be lower maintenance and higher precision in the long run.

That said, I’ve modified my ATO setup with kalkwasser so it adds upstream of the return chamber and before the bubble trap mechanical filter. Hopefully this helps a bit.

Any other tips for using Kalkwasser to minimize risk? Thank you

Move the sensor to upstream of where the kalkwasser is added to the aquarium system.

 

[Ross Petersen]

I may just try that... with the reservation that I currently use the sensor to protect the return pump from a low water event. One would hope the water levels in different chambers in the sump calibrate rather quickly... but with the RS valve, filter roller, and other variables - changing water levels in the sump seems to be the norm...

Thanks Randy

 

[TexAgReefer]

FWIW, many people assume that kalk stirrers deliver saturated limewater. Then when they measure thee potency, they find it s not true.

Can you explain further? Are you advocating against a stirrer? Truly seeking information as I don't want to implement something that isn't working as I understand its intent.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you explain further? Are you advocating against a stirrer? Truly seeking information as I don't want to implement something that isn't working as I understand its intent.

I'm not advocating for or against them, although I prefer dosing from a settled reservoir.

I'm just warning folks to not assume that a stirrer is delivering saturated limewater (if you care) before verifying that it is so.

 

[blasterman]

Yep. I stir it 4 times a day with a 2 hr settle period after the stir before it doses again.

I'm not sure where this urban myth that settled kalk is better than stirred kalk started, but it's silly.

The 'milky' part of stirred kalk is just calcium carbonate, and it should dissolve in your tank not too long after dosing. If it's not dissolving and leaving a precipitate then you have something else wrong and shouldn't be using kalk. I've dosed kalk to the point you can't see the rear of my tank and an hour later the water is crystal clear and there is zero precipitate.

The reason to use kalk is because it delivers balanced calcium and alk in a small amount along with increasing pH. Not sure why you would waste time with kalk if you are going to leave a big chunk of the calcium component in the bottom of the kalk reservoir.

You can get cheap, ~400gph power heads from Amazon. Just throw one on your kalk tank, put it on a $10 smart plug and be done with it.

 

[Garf]

I'm not sure where this urban myth that settled kalk is better than stirred kalk started, but it's silly.

The 'milky' part of stirred kalk is just calcium carbonate, and it should dissolve in your tank not too long after dosing. If it's not dissolving and leaving a precipitate then you have something else wrong and shouldn't be using kalk. I've dosed kalk to the point you can't see the rear of my tank and an hour later the water is crystal clear and there is zero precipitate.

The reason to use kalk is because it delivers balanced calcium and alk in a small amount along with increasing pH. Not sure why you would waste time with kalk if you are going to leave a big chunk of the calcium component in the bottom of the kalk reservoir.

You can get cheap, ~400gph power heads from Amazon. Just throw one on your kalk tank, put it on a $10 smart plug and be done with it.

I think the benefit is that lots of the impurities precipitate out at the bottom because of the high pH. Although some may in fact re dissolve at pH 12ish. Don’t know what impurity’s though.

 

[Ross Petersen]

My naïve take-home thoughts on Kalkwasser early in the reefing game:

-It destroys pumps more quickly (inexpensive ATOs, and expensive return pumps) the latter if dosed into the same chamber)
-It clogs delivery lines and valves, leading to potentially catostrophic system problems (e.g., return pump runs dry)
-It clogs optical sensors (e.g., the Tunze 3155; mine was clouded recently and stopped sensing low water level)

The above problems can be greatly mitigated with monthly maintenance, as well as separating the optical sensor from the kalkwasser ATO dosing line. That said, my current thinking in terms of best practice is the following:

#1. For smaller tanks, dose All-for-Reef or Kalkwasser from a separate dosing system
#2. For larger tanks, dose 2-part (and potentially kalkwasser) using a dosing pump that avoids high pH fluids that are often high in precipitates from eroding the hardware.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm not sure where this urban myth that settled kalk is better than stirred kalk started, but it's silly.

It is a simple fact, not an urban myth. lol

The source of that myth? probably me

Stirrers often do not deliver saturated limewater. A settled reservoir always can.

Without allowing settling, any impurities in the limewater get into the tank. Settle it out, and impurities such as copper settle out as well.

Proven facts.

maybe you do not care about them, but that's an opinion that others may not agree with.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think the benefit is that lots of the impurities precipitate out at the bottom because of the high pH. Although some may in fact re dissolve at pH 12ish. Don’t know what impurity’s though.

Copper:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Metals In Limewater

This article expands on the basis of the claim that limewater may be able to deliver lower quantities of some metals compared to calcium reactors and it also provides some experimental data that demonstrates this claim.

reefs.com

Figure 2. Copper sulfate solution before (left) and several hours after the addition of calcium hydroxide (right).

 

[TexAgReefer]

Copper:

Chemistry And The Aquarium: Metals In Limewater

This article expands on the basis of the claim that limewater may be able to deliver lower quantities of some metals compared to calcium reactors and it also provides some experimental data that demonstrates this claim.

reefs.com

Figure 2. Copper sulfate solution before (left) and several hours after the addition of calcium hydroxide (right).

Wow, did not know this. Maybe I should stir only a couple times with an even longer settle time. With an SPS dominant system, I want no part of the impurities in my tank!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Wow, did not know this. Maybe I should stir only a couple times with an even longer settle time. With an SPS dominant system, I want no part of the impurities in my tank!

In a stirrer, that will deliver weak limewater.

 

[TexAgReefer]

In a stirrer, that will deliver weak limewater.

So now I'm confused.

Should I stir MORE frequently to deliver concentrated limewater? But the less time it has to settle, the higher the risk of impurities contamination?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So now I'm confused.

Should I stir MORE frequently to deliver concentrated limewater? But the less time it has to settle, the higher the risk of impurities contamination?

I'd suggest measuring it somehow, if you are not able to maintain the tank alk. If it is not adding saturated alkalinity and you want more, then you may need to stir more often, or even 24/7. Depends on the stirrer design.

If you are able to maintain the tank alk, then what you are doing is dosing adequate potency.

I would not conclude that you need to do anything to settle out impurities., especially of you use RO/DI and good grade calcium hydroxide. Folks add other food grade additives without issue. I'm just noting that it is a potential advantage of doing so.

 

[arking_mark]

FWIW, many people assume that kalk stirrers deliver saturated limewater. Then when they measure thee potency, they find it s not true.

Very true. I found out my Octo Kalk Stirrer was delivering about 1/2 potency. I switched over to a magnetic stirrer and I am getting close to full potency.

 

[arking_mark]

My naïve take-home thoughts on Kalkwasser early in the reefing game:

-It destroys pumps more quickly (inexpensive ATOs, and expensive return pumps) the latter if dosed into the same chamber)
-It clogs delivery lines and valves, leading to potentially catostrophic system problems (e.g., return pump runs dry)
-It clogs optical sensors (e.g., the Tunze 3155; mine was clouded recently and stopped sensing low water level)

The above problems can be greatly mitigated with monthly maintenance, as well as separating the optical sensor from the kalkwasser ATO dosing line. That said, my current thinking in terms of best practice is the following:

#1. For smaller tanks, dose All-for-Reef or Kalkwasser from a separate dosing system
#2. For larger tanks, dose 2-part (and potentially kalkwasser) using a dosing pump that avoids high pH fluids that are often high in precipitates from eroding the hardware.

A Kalk reactor avoids the majority of these issues. The only issues would be clogged kalk line or stuck pump/sensor due to other reasons.

 

[Ross Petersen]

A Kalk reactor avoids the majority of these issues. The only issues would be clogged kalk line or stuck pump/sensor due to other reasons.

I'm looking into using one... but respected reefers I follow suggest there are other approaches that are lower maintenance and that are simpler to implement. I'm sure there are many discordant views/experiences on this topic ;Wacky