Accumulated Detritus in the Sump

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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It has been enjoyable never having to own a nitrite or nitrate kit and still grow so much coral the red monti is just thrown in the trash, nobody local wants unplugged frags.

Even if my reef was 100 gallons I still wouldn't buy nitrogen testing/ approximating, I'd design a no capture system/ high throughput and dispense with phosphate and all nitrogen species testing. Extremely low fish bioload high coral load w target feeding and regular partial changes would do it. any resulting nitrate would have no effect on algae presence on the rocks that's managed independently.

* I know Berlin systems work too/everyone starts this way but I moved away from them due to the bell curving.

Also consider not reacting to nitrate here... many enjoy this mode

Post pics of this tank curious to see display
 
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brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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someone else bumped that one i'd forgotten about it, one of the rare ones but they all state the same pattern of disturbance, fish loss immediately after, and clouding events its all so strongly linked to detritus. in the sand.

**on the flip side thirty other posts show a wrasse diving into someone's bed 10x a day, no loss. variation was the key, and Im not sure adding a diving wrasse to Sub's system above would be all safe unless one is already there to keep it overturned for a while

 
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nicodim55

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I will post pictures of the tank later. I did recently lose fish and all were removed immediately.
How high is your nitrates? What´s your nitrites (if you have measured them)

The nitrates is coming from the added food

Sincerely Lasse
80 ppm according to API , for those of you out there who uses this brand color is pretty red!
 
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Subsea

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[**on the flip side thirty other posts show a wrasse diving into someone's bed 10x a day, no loss. variation was the key, and Im not sure adding a diving wrasse to Sub's system above would be all safe unless one is already there to keep it overturned for a while]

@brandon429
Five years ago, I introduced a Melanarious Wrasse to my then 6” dsb on top of Jaubert Plenum. Two years later, detrivores were eliminated and a 20 year old sandbed gave me back Cynobacteria. I bit the bullet and over a period of two weeks, I gravel vacuumed out 200 pounds of gravel and hundreds of gallons of water. When the last day came, I brought 150G Rubbermade tube into living room and transferred water and rocks to tub. I then caught all fish and put in 5G bucket. At this point, I raised up edge of eggcrate, installed 1/2” pvc open ended header to put a slight positive pressure of oxygen rich water up thru the sandbed. Thank you @Paul B
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
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its a heck of a system for sure, just so diverse its among the more diverse ones on the board per recent posts, well done x3

benthic community diverse, not just corals

forgot to ask are you using ocean water in any way, its so diverse its indicative of that actually
 
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nicodim55

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So here’s the current state of my tank. Please Don’t mind the algae on the front pane, I’m scrubbing it again this weekend and doing a 40g water change.

A326177E-E370-490F-A8A5-9841DFE6445D.jpeg
 
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nicodim55

nicodim55

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its a heck of a system for sure, just so diverse its among the more diverse ones on the board per recent posts, well done x3

benthic community diverse, not just corals

forgot to ask are you using ocean water in any way, its so diverse its indicative of that actually
Yes I am using real ocean water for the past 15 years.
 

Subsea

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Hello reefers, is there any negative impact in removing detritus in sumps? I’m thinking about vacuuming all the accumulated detritus inside the entire chamber using a wet dry vacuum. Will there be any ammonia spikes or ill effects by doing this? Please help and chime in. Thank you and you all be safe.

while reading up on amino acids and coral nutrition, I highlighted one paragraphs of interest to this topic:




[Plankton also is an important source of amino acids, as bacteria, phytoplankton and zooplankton are all rich in protein. When corals feed on plankton, they can break down its proteins via digestion and liberate the amino acids. This digestive process is known as protein hydrolysis (breakdown of proteins using water), and is facilitated with enzymes known as proteases. In the same way, detrital matter can be a source of amino acids.]
 
MotorCityCorals

ScottB

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Yes I am using real ocean water for the past 15 years.
Do you have a Hanna measure of Phosphates? If your PO4 is depleted, it can be hard for your system to process nitrates as fast as you are adding them.

The other reason I ask is that before you go knocking back nitrates, you need to know your phosphates or phosphorus.

If you have an abundance of PO4, then I would look into "carbon dosing" with 80 proof vodka. I quickly knocked down NO3 over the course of 3-4 weeks this way. Totally natural, easy to administer, and as long as you don't overdose it is totally safe. Oh, you MUST HAVE a decent protein skimmer to remove all the bacterial gunk. You will be shocked how much thicker the skimmate becomes.

But I repeat: you need to know your phosphate level first as carbon dosing will remove some PO4 as well.
 

iggy

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Coral Euphoria and ReefBum channel on youtube have excellent sps growth and remove detritus, mostly looking like fluffy sand.

Not to be harsh, but advice and show amd tells proving success are two different things. I follow them with excellent results, yet I still leave things a little dirty with detectable nitrates.
 

brandon429

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This man here doesnt like sandbed detritus anymore.



**what’s fascinating about these loss tanks is nobody knows cause


we know the locus that’s for sure, just not the actual cause of death within the cloud


ammonia wouldnt be hanging around it would be used up before disturbance I was wrong in past posts stating it could be free ammonia, agreed.


we think hydrogen sulfide would be smell apparent in the room where the losses occurred, it stinks.

so what it is within unoxidated sands that is lethal? Fascinating.


the locus can not be successfully debated. It is within the detritus cloud and oxidative states affect the lethality of the cloud, we just dont know what’s the actual cause. (Reason it can’t be debated, see # of successful pages of happy tank transfers we have done in the sand rinse thread since the start of this current thread, we know where the locus of control exists but we dont know the actual lethality detail)


someone, please send icp a sample of your oldest untouched sandbed‘s material. To get it without killing your tank, tape a hose to a dowel and insert into corner of tank. Dredge up some funky mud and send it to icp.
 
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iggy

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I do not fit criterias as I have a bare bottom tank. I just siphoned reachable amounts if detritus and the phosphate shot up from 0.08 to 0.16 and trending down again. Not a huge issue but the disturbed detritus did release some phosphates.

I just run a chaeto refugium with A360x refugiim light and BRS gfo reactor with 3 tablespoons of rowaphos at a breaking trickle to slowly drift phosphates down that accumilate. I grow out sps mostly.
 
MotorCityCorals

taricha

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we think hydrogen sulfide would be smell apparent in the room where the losses occurred, it stinks.

so what it is within unoxidated sands that is lethal? Fascinating.

I once stirred up my sand while measuring O2 during an intentionally caused bacterial bloom and the O2 dropped, but my notes are fuzzy on the timing so I wanted to try to recreate it - not in my tank.

Here's a quick and dirty little n=2 test that may fill in some blanks.

water bottle filled with tank water ~500mL
suck up grunge from .5"-1.5" down in the sand from a few locations in the sand. One bottle got ~15mL. Second bottle twice as much ~30mL of grungy sandbed water.
swirl the grunge in the bottle. Measure a minute or two later. (These ratios in the bottles might be close to what I'd get if I stirred my entire sandbed.)

dissolved O2:
bottle1: 95% of max O2 -> 90%
bottle2: 93% -> 84%

ORP:
bottle 1: drop of ~70mV
bottle 2: drop of ~200 mV, ORP went negative

Smell:
bottle 1: nothing I noticed
bottle 2: sulfur smell right at the bottle opening. nothing elsewhere.

Ammonia: nothing

What do I take away from this?
1. My grunge sample sites that went into the second bottle were worse than the ones in the first. Not all uniform.
2. There are chemically reduced species - including some H2S - in a grungy sandbed. They are capable of dropping O2 levels a measurable amount almost instantly - the reaction is chemical, not bacteria consuming O2. I suppose if you had enough, then O2 could actually be depleted.
3. But the ORP and smell, I think are bigger red flags. They suggest to me that the H2S is probably a bigger risk. I don't know if other reducing compounds in the mix are also acutely toxic? I don't think a negative ORP is itself "harmful", as much as it indicates the presence of harmful chemical species.
4. There's some chemical complications here - H2S reacts with O2 fairly quickly. So If there's over 50% max O2 in the water, then the H2S ought to break down before harming fish?
 

brandon429

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that's fantastic I've never seen any quantification of those insult groups above taken from a running bed that's just such handy info for old tank syndrome tracking, tank aging patterning etc. very helpful!

there is admittedly a majority of tank moves/relocations and upgrades that go fine and they do keep the old.

but that 10%, that stinger group, they comprise thousands in collective losses and something repeating is going on for them, we're seeing losses down to as low as one handful of that used causing marked and matched fish kills. so nice to read these groups above to at least trend towards measure vs speculation only

Ralph had mentioned o2 loss prior so good job on clue tracing there man.
 

Subsea

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This man here doesnt like sandbed detritus anymore.



**what’s fascinating about these loss tanks is nobody knows cause


we know the locus that’s for sure, just not the actual cause of death within the cloud


ammonia wouldnt be hanging around it would be used up before disturbance I was wrong in past posts stating it could be free ammonia, agreed.


we think hydrogen sulfide would be smell apparent in the room where the losses occurred, it stinks.

so what it is within unoxidated sands that is lethal? Fascinating.


the locus can not be successfully debated. It is within the detritus cloud and oxidative states affect the lethality of the cloud, we just dont know what’s the actual cause. (Reason it can’t be debated, see # of successful pages of happy tank transfers we have done in the sand rinse thread since the start of this current thread, we know where the locus of control exists but we dont know the actual lethality detail)


someone, please send icp a sample of your oldest untouched sandbed‘s material. To get it without killing your tank, tape a hose to a dowel and insert into corner of tank. Dredge up some funky mud and send it to icp.

When I operated Jaubert Plenum with 4” DSB, I could visually see hydrogen sulfide black zone migrating up & down. In 30G EvoSystem mud/macro refugium, when I removed Caulerpa from mud, a distinctive hydrogen sulfide small was strong, yet no harm to 75G display.

To be blunt, I question the husbandry of some of the reef threads that wiped out tanks. Hydrogen sulfide dissipates rapidly if exposed to oxygen. Again, depending on system dynamics I always stirred up top inch of sandbed with filter feeders like sea apples feeding on detritus suspended in water colum.

Makeup water to all of my tanks comes from ground water well at 1000’ deep in a limestone aquifer that was an ancient inland sea. TDS is 950ppm and is heavy with calcium, magnesium and sulfur which I often smell when it comes out of the tap. Because the sulfur effected the taste of Red Ogo, I shut down greenhouse operations in 8000G system to sell to Asian restaurants in Austin.
 

Parrottbay

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@Randy Holmes-Farley & @ Lasse have 100 years of accumulated hands on reef tank experience and as @Paul B would say, “They have more degrees than a thermometer”.

Kudos to you men of distinction.

To take off on what @Brandon said, I will explain a 25 year Jaubert Plenum system which included 30G EcoSystem mud/macro refugium. Having performed zero maintenance , aside from composting garden with nutrient export, I have noted an increase in depth of mud from 1” to 1.5” in 25;years. It feels spongy to the touch and is crawling with worms & things. My goal for this biofilter is to support sea apples, sponges and scallops. That’s my story and I am sticking to it.

image.jpg
Your tank might be clear and Clean looking but it looks, to me, proof it could actually sustain anything that are more finicky is hard to say. To you, might be what you're going for, but for others, with a different stocking list could be devastating. I don't think I'd want that sump idea with my sps, I couldn't imagine losing some of my pieces that cost hundreds for 1 inch frags due to laziness. I've learned that lesson with lack of testing.
 
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Subsea

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Your tank might be clear and Clean looking but it looks, to me, proof it could actually sustain anything other than beginner corals. To you, might be what you're going for, but for others, I don't think I'd want that sump with my sps.

I am not interested in SPS. I prefer filter feeders like sea apples, flame scallops and sponges which would not work with an SPS tank. None of the items I mentioned are beginner stuff.
 
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