Accumulated Detritus in the Sump

[nicodim55]

Hello reefers, is there any negative impact in removing detritus in sumps? I’m thinking about vacuuming all the accumulated detritus inside the entire chamber using a wet dry vacuum. Will there be any ammonia spikes or ill effects by doing this? Please help and chime in. Thank you and you all be safe.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I let mine accumulate to about an inch thick mud over many years. I'm not sure removal is necessary or useful, but if you do not stir up a lot of stuff that gets loose, it should not be a problem to remove it.

 

[nicodim55]

I let mine accumulate to about an inch thick mud over many years. I'm not sure removal is necessary or useful, but if you do not stir up a lot of stuff that gets loose, it should not be a problem to remove it.

Yes, mine is about an inch deep lol. My plan is turn off the return, vacuum and keep refilling that chamber with water until I have it all removed. I’ve been having trouble in keeping my nitrates low so I thought maybe this was a nítrate factory? What do you think?

 

[Lasse]

A inch deep detritus layer should IMO not act as a "nitrite factory" (serve as substrate for nitrification) I would more likely think that it will be a help getting rid of nitrates through denitrification or serve as a substrate for the Anammox process. By the way - i never clean my sump - this setup have run nearly 5 years

Sincerely Lasse

 

[nicodim55]

A inch deep detritus layer should IMO not act as a "nitrite factory" (serve as substrate for nitrification) I would more likely think that it will be a help getting rid of nitrates through denitrification or serve as a substrate for the Anammox process. By the way - i never clean my sump

Sincerely Lasse

So in essence, I would be removing beneficial bacteria by disturbing and removing the detritus?

 

[Subsea]

A inch deep detritus layer should IMO not act as a "nitrite factory" (serve as substrate for nitrification) I would more likely think that it will be a help getting rid of nitrates through denitrification or serve as a substrate for the Anammox process. By the way - i never clean my sump

Sincerely Lasse

yes to microbial overlords. When I first heard of Anammax process, understanding it was above my pay grade but I was intrigued with difficulty of quantitative measurement. At about the same time, I read Reef Aquarium Volume 3, in which Julian Sprung said the nitrification bacteria & denitrification bacteria were found “close coupled” in the reef Aquarium.

Please expound on Anammax Process and compare to denitrification bacteria. I am most familiar with oxidizing bacteria in a lower oxygen enviroment that must expend more energy to capture oxygen from nitrate molecule and thus release free nitrogen gas.

 

[Lasse]

Maybe - maybe not - you will probably not know before you have removed the detritus. But whatever you chose - be consequent - if you chose to remove - remove all. If you chose to have it to stay - do not touch it or remove a part of it. I must say that I have only a very thin detritus layer in my sump

Anammox

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

zero harm to biofiltration will be done in removing all the detritus. zero harm to the biofilter results from leaving it in as well.

we could remove your detritus, all your sand instantly, add six new fish, and you still wouldn't lack filtration bacteria (because your live rocks are the only required source of bacteria, we didn't harm them)


we do these exact sand removal jobs daily in the sand rinse thread...several times over. cleaning is always within the boundaries. some people like the zone as a worm refugium or for pod food, fine just the same since its aerated/ well reduced already.

the fun starts when we upwell detritus from inside an aged sandbed in the display. by fun I mean 4% total tank losses totaling all fish at once. those are on file too in the sand rinse thread, warnings to new posters etc.

detritus in the sump not the same, play in it like snow if we like, somehow its not the same and best guesses are plenty of full or nearly-complete aerobic bac digestion of most of the remaining nutrients. the partially-degraded states in a sandbed...4% or so when disturbed will kill all fish within ten mins. the number is made up, its a small percent. but the people on our loss threads didn't mind about percentages, they minded being one of loss posts, so we handle sandbed waste much differently than clean sump waste.

 

[nicodim55]

zero harm to biofiltration will be done in removing all the detritus. zero harm to the biofilter results from leaving it in as well.

we could remove your detritus, all your sand instantly, add six new fish, and you still wouldn't lack filtration bacteria (because your live rocks are the only required source of bacteria, we didn't harm them)


we do these exact sand removal jobs daily in the sand rinse thread...several times over. cleaning is always within the boundaries. some people like the zone as a worm refugium or for pod food, fine just the same since its aerated/ well reduced already.

So it’s ok to either siphon it or leave it. I’m just trying to eliminate all the possibilities for high nitrates.

 

[Subsea]

@Randy Holmes-Farley & @ Lasse have 100 years of accumulated hands on reef tank experience and as @Paul B would say, “They have more degrees than a thermometer”.

Kudos to you men of distinction.

To take off on what @Brandon said, I will explain a 25 year Jaubert Plenum system which included 30G EcoSystem mud/macro refugium. Having performed zero maintenance , aside from composting garden with nutrient export, I have noted an increase in depth of mud from 1” to 1.5” in 25;years. It feels spongy to the touch and is crawling with worms & things. My goal for this biofilter is to support sea apples, sponges and scallops. That’s my story and I am sticking to it.

 

[brandon429]

very sharp setup there!

 

[Lasse]

very sharp setup there!

Really?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Well he’s not digging handfuls and casting it about that’s for sure

or having to move homes with it, stasis is nice.


we recently almost had an entire 120 gallon worth about ten grand wiped out by someone taking the dare, let’s don’t w that system above it was meant to stay in place, never disturbed. The ~4% are seeing near total crashes, and sad at the losses that’s for sure. Rarely does detritus sitting in place stratified and locked down cause a crash.

 

[bobnicaragua]

If you do clean it out, a small power head in each sump chamber will stop it from accumulating.

 

[Lasse]

Brandon does as he always does - he put bananas, apples, orange, grapes and so one in a basket - name it Fruit. Take away the bananas and the grapes - but no harm - the basket is still full of fruits - no cow on the ice.

What i try to say is that if it is old enough - your sediment can act as a nitrate removal unit because part of it is anaerobic. Take away that - you take away the parts that help you limit the nitrate.

If it just is on the bottom with no moving or swirling - only the upper 1-3 µ of the layer is aerobic enough to maintenance a full nitrification - i.e create nitrate from ammoniac/ammonium and serve as a nitrate production unit. For me is more likely that a 1 inch sediment layer act as nitrate removing unit because it is an anaerobic environment in the bottom of the sediment. Both the microorganisms responsible for nitrification and denitrification are bacteria but the difference between them are more than the difference between a durian and a cherry

If your detritus layer serve as a denitrification substrates or not - I can´t say. You will notice that after you have take it away (your nitrate levels will rise more than before) If so - you have learned something.

What I try to say - you will probably not crash the aquarium if you let it be and you will probably not either crash it if you take it up. But if you take it up be sure to take up all and stop the circulation.

If you do clean it out, a small power head in each sump chamber will stop it from accumulating.

In this case - you will have the particles to sediment somewhere else. IMO is more smart (if you want to take it away) to let it sediment in the sump and clean it away now and then

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

could link several example threads here that are all apples lol but ya'll got this one have at it, mix away. detritus above the sandbed, oranges. below the sandbed, rotten apples potential= its why aren't there many tank move threads to consult. its easy to make predictions right up till someone asks to move their $10K sps reef a few times over...detritus stands out very soon once that's undertaken and we get live time feedback/

I noticed here nobody has mentioned the riskier portion of waste...wouldn't want the op to think it's all the same waste in every area of the tank. some basic searches w show the 4% ers.

 

[Lasse]

Fruit again

Running a tank without rinsing the sanbed - yes it is doable as long as you do not touch the sandbed and swirl it up.

But if you move an aquarium you need to rinse the sand a little before you restart it because you have disturbed the balance,

However - it still fruits (aquariums) in both examples

Sincerely Lasse

 

[nicodim55]

Thanks for all responses guys. I just want to eliminate every possibilities why my nitrates is high. My tank is 150g and I have done 40-60g water change each week for the past month and the level of nitrates is still pretty high. I use API tester and other expensive testers out there and they all give me the same results (high nitrates). This tank has been running for 15 years. Inhabitants are happy granted its mostly lps, softies, and fish. I would like to throw in some sps in there someday but with my current #’s I can’t. Can you guys add other suggestions where it’s coming from?

 

[Malcontent]

I'd vacuum it out.

 

[brandon429]

Can you guys add other suggestions where it’s coming from?


where the detritus comes from is collective waste from the system-cast off shells and chitin molts and actual waste matter, mostly-decayed proteins and plant cells (in the aerobic zones) and I think others have tested aerated detritus and found it rather inert, mostly ash if I didn't read T's work incorrectly.

Actual dirt is part of it, all homes need dusting and nobody dusts reef tanks...
it collects in the sump due to currents and collection eddies etc.

its in the display, in the sand, in the rocks too but not as apparent.

Live rock itself pumps copious daily input of waste pellets (its tenants not the actual rock)

sitting perfectly clean live rock in a white bucket of sw over nite will show how reefs constantly produce pellet waste and distribute it around for sinking, typically. another common approach is to collectively rot all whole matter in the tank as long as possible and try and clean out the dissolved portion by plant uptake.

people who join our safe tank move/relocation threads clean out 100% of the waste so that all transfers go smoothly, we hate detritus in that thread only.

other schemes like rollermats remove it before breakdown as we remove that portion of mat, and some systems like the above concentrate it in certain zones to try and totally reduce it into minerals without having to actually export it as whole particles or mud.

no form of cleaning will remove your filtration capability, and certainly not cleaning out basic mud. due to its location, leaving it in isn't devastating and the kit saying you have nitrate likely wouldn't agree with three other nitrate tests ran, they approximate so much. the nitrate you are reacting to can easily be fifty ppm higher or lower than it shows, per many comparison threads.