Adding Ammonia to Established Tank for Nitrate Control

[Garf]

@brandon429 Here you go, tried to be as thorough as possible and provide references/validation.
Time stamps included in photos and match seneye FREE ammonia stamps for easy conversion. Yesterday was 10/21/22. FTS in follow up post. First pic is from right before dosing and the rest are after. Vials are all API TOTAL ammonia in date measured 5min after mixing. I still fed fish like normal but did not do my 2nd .5ppm Dose at 8pm like normal. I also turned of my skimmer until this morning so that it would not suck any up. My bottled ammonia is right around 3% and I tried my best to dose to exactly .5ppm but left a little safety buffer. Also I dose close to where the Seneye unit is so the huge initial spike is really just barely above .02 Free. Did not bother with the seachem alert as it did not move and only shows a different color once above .02 FREE ammonia and I should have only been above that for 10min or so. Calculation for reference also below. If you want more info on the tank you can find more detail in my build thread.

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Do you have another way of testing pH apart from the Seneye? Is there a way to calibrate the readout?

 

[DIFish]

Do you have another way of testing pH apart from the Seneye? Is there a way to calibrate the readout?

API PH test kit so yes ish. You can trim the Seneye up or down to calibrate. The slides are replaced every month and the readings are really bad the last few days, I would trust it to about a .2 margin of error most days and use it mainly to track trends.

 

[Garf]

API PH test kit so yes ish. You can trim the Seneye up or down to calibrate. The slides are replaced every month and the readings are really bad the last few days, I would trust it to about a .2 margin of error most days and use it mainly to track trends.

Ok, at 0.5ppm NH3/NH4 at pH 8.4 (if it was that far off) could be a problem as the free ammonia would read 0.05 ish on the seneye, if it’s working correctly. According to those in the know, that’s when gill damage can occur.

Dissecting your results the Seneye appears accurate in ammonia readings if the pH is actually 7.9, which agrees with your observations (assuming you’ve added the right amount of ammonia for the water volume etc, etc).

Would like to see the plot on a graph for the ammonia reduction. Appears folks think it should be a straight line to zero ish (can’t remember where I’ve read that). Visualizing your data in pictorial form it’s more like a reduction in efficiency at the lower end and it flattens out. Not important by any means, I’m just curious.

 

[DIFish]

Ok, at 0.5ppm NH3/NH4 at pH 8.4 (if it was that far off) could be a problem as the free ammonia would read 0.05 ish on the seneye, if it’s working correctly. According to those in the know, that’s when gill damage can occur.

Dissecting your results the Seneye appears accurate in ammonia readings if the pH is actually 7.9, which agrees with your observations (assuming you’ve added the right amount of ammonia for the water volume etc, etc).

Would like to see the plot on a graph for the ammonia reduction. Appears folks think it should be a straight line to zero ish (can’t remember where I’ve read that). Visualizing your data in pictorial form it’s more like a reduction in efficiency at the lower end and it flattens out. Not important by any means, I’m just curious.

Agree. My pH graph has Seneye showing about 7.9 through most of the readings and no higher than 8.1. Tank fluctuates from 7.8-8.1 during 24 hours. My goal for dosing was to keep free ammonia under .02 as going above that is when most agree fish can get hurt. The Seneye overall does a good job I think. One import thing I forgot to mention is that .001 is the lowest it will go even in Rodi water, so when it is .001 I treat it as returned to 0. Based on previous dosings I agree that it seems remove a lot of ammonia early and then tapers off around the .005ppm mark no matter how much was originally added. Would be very interested to know why that is. In the first half hour after dosing it removed a massive amount, wonder if it was just hungry bacteria, ease of getting it out of the water, or something else at play. Might throw a graph together of a few different dosings and post it. Also did some of my original cycle with it in so will look at that too. Also important to note, I have never shown above 0 through normal feedings. Have literally over fed like crazy and never see the ammonia level even budge. Can feed 3x my standard amount and Free ammonia doesn’t even go to .002.

 

[brandon429]

Garf and DIFish these are great analyses this is a really really helpful cycling thread bc we just hardly ever see comparisons across these kits. I had already linked your thread in 3 prominent cycle study threads we run bc I knew you were about to post neat info

And it surely is. The nuanced way the seneye is being evaluated, we have the surface area of the main display to factor, the specific measures of dosed ammonia this reef and any other display reef can run

One of the biggest unspoken impacts of your thread on cycling science along with other ammonia dosing threads is that you are in process defining the max boundaries of ammonia loading reef tanks can handle. That stop zone hasn't been found (animals will show when harmed) that's amazing.

It doesn't matter if other reef tanks don't own seneye, their tank does what your tank does this is the essence of updated cycling science...the linkage among tanks vs the variation we once thought cycled reefs displayed.

You're able to clearly digitally chart the degree of ammonia resolve all reef tanks have who employ a stack of rocks in the water. Your data matches other posts that do the same thing, and in this data set things reef tank forums are posting govern the rule change about what cycled reefs do

 

[brandon429]

Let the official cycling record reflect: animal toxicity was not reached even after myriad liquid ammonia doses.


Ie., any reef tank not actively dosing four times your amount of liquid ammonia is certainly not in a stall; they're using your degree of rocks carrying only their own bioload.

Your thread renders all future broken cycle posts in reefing as completely unfounded, they too won't be reaching animal toxicity anytime soon


Your thread is very important to cycling science studies in pattern.

 

[DIFish]

Garf and DIFish these are great analyses this is a really really helpful cycling thread bc we just hardly ever see comparisons across these kits. I had already linked your thread in 3 prominent cycle study threads we run bc I knew you were about to post neat info

And it surely is. The nuanced way the seneye is being evaluated, we have the surface area of the main display to factor, the specific measures of dosed ammonia this reef and any other display reef can run

One of the biggest unspoken impacts of your thread on cycling science along with other ammonia dosing threads is that you are in process defining the max boundaries of ammonia loading reef tanks can handle. That stop zone hasn't been found (animals will show when harmed) that's amazing.

It doesn't matter if other reef tanks don't own seneye, their tank does what your tank does this is the essence of updated cycling science...the linkage among tanks vs the variation we once thought cycled reefs displayed.

You're able to clearly digitally chart the degree all reef tanks who employ a stack of rocks in the water with circulation in place. Your data matches other posts that do the same thing, and in this data set things reef tank forums are posting are governing the rule change about what cycled reefs do

The Seneye is a neat tool, but I somehow feel like it almost proves that it itself is kind of worthless for the average reefer. I think the main selling point is ammonia monitoring…something nobody really needs to do after a cycle. Probably why there are not many people with them around. I have read lots of articles on the bacteria reproducing less at higher ppm like 8+, and most will agree is increasingly unsafe for fish somewhere around .02ppm+ Free. I think as long as you are playing with those rules it seems like your tank will be fine and ammonia is not that scary. My corals certainly were not hurt cycling with 2+ppm ammonia. Just a thought, but after doing this and seeing the positive effects it had on my Dino issue, I would want to see some people who have been battling Dinos dose a small amount for a few weeks and see if the nutrient increase solves it.

 

[Garf]

The Seneye is a neat tool, but I somehow feel like it almost proves that it itself is kind of worthless for the average reefer. I think the main selling point is ammonia monitoring…something nobody really needs to do after a cycle. Probably why there are not many people with them around. I have read lots of articles on the bacteria reproducing less at higher ppm like 8+, and most will agree is increasingly unsafe for fish somewhere around .02ppm+ Free. I think as long as you are playing with those rules it seems like your tank will be fine and ammonia is not that scary. My corals certainly were not hurt cycling with 2+ppm ammonia. Just a thought, but after doing this and seeing the positive effects it had on my Dino issue, I would want to see some people who have been battling Dinos dose a small amount for a few weeks and see if the nutrient increase solves it.

For what it’s worth, with the ammonia you’ve added, and the fish food you’ve been feeding, and the lack of forests of algae growth, and few corals, I think your nitrate is higher than you think. Bloody hobby test kits, lol :)

Happy reefin :)

 

[DIFish]

For what it’s worth, with the ammonia you’ve added, and the fish food you’ve been feeding, and the lack of forests of algae growth, and few corals, I think your nitrate is higher than you think. Bloody hobby test kits, lol :)

Happy reefin :)

Been skimming wet and have a decent amount of hungry softy frags. I was using all for reef and microbactor 7 which I have been told could be lightly carbon dosing the tank which might explain the continued low numbers. Also a very new tank so not sure where it is all going. Definitely have algae, but nothing quite forest like. If anyone knows where it is going please let me know haha. Dosing a bit under 1ppm total per day should be like +25 nitrates per week right?! I test nitrate with API and Hanna ULR(It is a pain in the butt) Picture is about an hour ago, 4 days no cleaning/algae removal except front glass. Algae was not really there about 4 days ago and was really bad like 3 weeks back. Is coming back with a vengeance now that nutrients are on the rise as I am also doing phosphate now.

 

[Garf]

Been skimming wet and have a decent amount of hungry softy frags. I was using all for reef and microbactor 7 which I have been told could be lightly carbon dosing the tank which might explain the continued low numbers. Also a very new tank so not sure where it is all going. Definitely have algae, but nothing quite forest like. If anyone knows where it is going please let me know haha. Dosing a bit under 1ppm total per day should be like +25 nitrates per week right?! I test nitrate with API and Hanna ULR(It is a pain in the butt) Picture is about an hour ago, 4 days no cleaning/algae removal except front glass. Algae was not really there about 4 days ago and was really bad like 3 weeks back. Is coming back with a vengeance now that nutrients are on the rise as I am also doing phosphate now.

I would add snails, and an urchin and stop adding ammonia to be honest. Let the critters recycle the nutrients out of the algae. The algae kinda messes up the premise that nitrifying bacteria are doing the heavy ammonia removal. Gonna be a nice tank though, looks like a good start.

 

[DIFish]

I would add snails, and an urchin and stop adding ammonia to be honest. Let the critters recycle the nutrients out of the algae. The algae kinda messes up the premise that nitrifying bacteria are doing the heavy ammonia removal. Gonna be a nice tank though, looks like a good start.

Yeah ammonia was just a short term fix thing as I completely bottomed out nutrients a little over 2 weeks back. Algae was gone for a while when I was sitting on 0 nitrates and phosphates but now is back the last few days and obviously liking the ammonia add. Got a small crew with an urchin and a conch that have been helping me out. (Pics of him wearing a hat on my build thread) Once I get 10 nitrates I am done dosing it, and I made this thread just to see if I was crazy for trying. Not usually a numbers chaser but my zoas were having it rough when everything was 0 and I hit the panic button.

 

[Miniyork]

I always dose nitrate in this sort of case. No need to worry about any ammo spike in case of overdose.

 

[DIFish]

I always dose nitrate in this sort of case. No need to worry about any ammo spike in case of overdose.

Nitrates are definitely easier, but I had the ammonia on hand and as long as you know the concentration beforehand manual dosing is pretty easy. I also wanted to get a little bacteria going as I am doubling my fish load in a week or two. I genuinely wonder if a low amount of ammonia has more positive impact on coral growth than Nitrate dosing, but I don’t imagine many will be in a rush to start dosing it.

 

[brandon429]

adding fish / increasing bioload will not require extra surface area or bacteria in your system. you have the ability to carry a large increase right now, and the rates of nitrification will be in spec. Dr. Tim demonstrated in prior threads the ability for systemic bacteria to instantly take on a large bioload and sustain it; the cells simply work harder.

you can't increase bacterial loading without adding new surface area; your water shear rate and other factors combine to limit the amount of bacteria you can sustain on your current tank surfaces-they're full.

no reef display has ever, ever ever been tracked digitally as lacking in bacteria or surface area for handling ammonia.

you are free to add and subtract bioload without cause of fear and in fact you doing so/updating measures here will drive cycling science rate of evolution bigtime.

 

[brandon429]

if you ever get bored with that mighty meter this is the test the hobby needs the most and nobody has done:

set up a side test tank using a lot of cycled rock in the center display. put in several chromis or clowns or perhaps even a single bigger fish. use the seneye to show trending in bioload carry with the setup

then begin moving rocks out until your nh3 rides about .08 ish/ stop/ put fish back in normal home if they act strange before that reading as it climbs or if they're acting normal at that reading, that's a fair stopping point.

to learn about surface area impacts and true dynamics, our hobby needs to see how far surface area can be removed from a biosystem and that system still not crash. we currently assume not any of it can be spared

it'll be amazing to see indeed how much rock can be spared is the prediction.

we dont need liquid ammonia testing, we need real field testing with fish who excrete ammonia not as 2 ppm blasts but as a continual small outflow from the gills. it's not mean bc we will stop the test if they act strange or the reading begins to climb. heck if you can get the nh3 to move from thousandths even to .02 hundredths ppm I'm sold that's the breakpoint.


reefing has never documented the breakpoint in required surface area before. amazing / we're in a 50 year hobby.

we had no way to measure such a break before seneye is why, in my opinion.

 

[DIFish]

if you ever get bored with that mighty meter this is the test the hobby needs the most and nobody has done:

set up a side test tank using a lot of cycled rock in the center display. put in several chromis or clowns or perhaps even a single bigger fish. use the seneye to show trending in bioload carry with the setup

then begin moving rocks out until your nh3 rides about .08 ish/ stop/ put fish back in normal home if they act strange before that reading as it climbs or if they're acting normal at that reading, that's a fair stopping point.

to learn about surface area impacts and true dynamics, our hobby needs to see how far surface area can be removed from a biosystem and that system still not crash. we currently assume not any of it can be spared

it'll be amazing to see indeed how much rock can be spared is the prediction.

we dont need liquid ammonia testing, we need real field testing with fish who excrete ammonia not as 2 ppm blasts but as a continual small outflow from the gills. it's not mean bc we will stop the test if they act strange or the reading begins to climb. heck if you can get the nh3 to move from thousandths even to .02 hundredths ppm I'm sold that's the breakpoint.


reefing has never documented the breakpoint in required surface area before. amazing / we're in a 50 year hobby.

we had no way to measure such a break before seneye is why, in my opinion.

I am a bit confused on the purpose. Wouldn’t this just be calculating the surface area of live rock? Aren’t all ammonia related “crashes” really just ammonia getting to high for the fish and killing them? Bacteria should remain unchanged unless the levels go crazy high? So really we would just want to know how much ammonia a pound of live rock can handle. There are many artificial medias out there that state their capacity in gallons/grams of food per day. Maybe I am misunderstanding the water chemistry, but isn’t the total level of Ammonia-Nitrates in the water directly related to feeding amounts? In addition the standard 1pound per gallon recommendation seems to be way overkilll and as long as somebody has rock in their system it seems like it would be hard to have a tank crash. Feel free to send me a PM or start a new thread as to not derail the current topic.