Advice for fish sickness (Ich?)

[maxberter]

(I’m probably including more information than relevant)

Tank is a tall 37 gallon (30x12x23”) with rock & sand bottom. Currently FOWLR. Tank has a powerhead and heater, no mechanical filtration. (picture 1)

Parameters look good, stable, test multiple times a week. I do a 10-20% water change every week. 78.3 degF, 7.8 pH, 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrate, 5 Nitrate.

Tank was filled a little over a month ago and cycled for 2 weeks and then first animals were added on May 21 (2.5 weeks ago) – Ocellaris Clown, Firefish Goby, and a Fire Shrimp. All were healthy.

On May 27 (1.5 weeks ago) added a Coral Beauty, Six Line Wrasse, a cleaner shrimp and a snail. The Six Line hid/slept most of the first day and then by midday the next day he was dead. I’m not sure if the acclimation was too fast (I did 30 min float and then 15 min drip) or he was already sick or what.

The rest of the fish were all healthy until this last Saturday (June 3), when I noticed white spots on the Coral Beauty. Nothing noticed on other fish (picture 2). All fish including Coral Beauty seemed to behave normally. The next day and following days the spots were gone.

Yesterday (June 6) the white spots were back and today still there, but barely visible (picture 3). Today I also noticed a white patch on his head that I believe is new and I think his right eye has some cloudiness and/or swollen (pictures 4,5). Also, today I believe the clown might have a haziness or very small spots as well near the dorsal fin (pictures 6,7). The fish are still all acting normally. There seems to be small white specs floating in the water today.

I’m not sure what to do. Is it Ich? Do I keep on top of water changes and feed well, but not actually treat and hope they can live with? If the survive might they become kind of immune, or will they always have lesions/sickness? Should I pull all the fish and put into a quarantine tank (I don’t currently have one) and treat with copper while the tank has a fallow period for 70 days? Or two tanks and use the tank transfer method? If I did decide to go the fallow route, would this be an OK time to introduce anemone/corals and lighting? I can leave the invertebrates in the DT, correct?

Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Welcome to Reef2Reef!

Seems like you have assessed the situation fairly well. Many dealers hold their fish at low salt levels. If you tank is at full salinity, it is difficult to acclimate fish up to that level in one stage. Here is an article on acclimation:
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/acclimation-methods.903/

I cannot see much detail in the photos, but spots coming and going is an early sign of ich, a protozoan disease that is usually fatal in new aquariums if not treated. You mentioned that your tank is FOWLR. It isn't really, because you have a shrimp in there. If the shrimp wasn't there, you could treat the whole tank with hyposalinity. That would manage ich, as well as flukes. The main hyposalinity thread is here:

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

You could remove the shrimp and snails and do that.....

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Hi Jay,
Thanks for the comments! I buy my salt water from the same store that sold the fish, so I guess that they use the same salinity in their tanks, but possibly not. I do believe they dose copper in at least some of their tanks.

Just to be sure, the hyposalinity in DT will fully eradicate the ick if done long enough (30-35 days)?

I didn't really understand this treatment option. Thanks a lot for the link. I am liking this idea since my tank is so new it sounds better than doing it with an established tank, and also it will allow my family to enjoy the fish still during the treatment period.

I dont have a hydrometer yet since I've been buying the water premade, so looks like I'll need one.

I would put the shrimp, snail, and urchin (forgot to mention I also got an urchin with the 2nd batch of fish) in a second tank 10 gal for this time? Normal salinity, located far away from DT, feed small amounts of flake food? Can it be without a cycled filter and just managed with water changes? Heater and air stone only ok? PVC elbows?

Thanks

Edit: just finished reading both articles. So very helpful, thanks!!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,
Thanks for the comments! I buy my salt water from the same store that sold the fish, so I guess that they use the same salinity in their tanks, but possibly not. I do believe they dose copper in at least some of their tanks.

Just to be sure, the hyposalinity in DT will fully eradicate the ick if done long enough (30-35 days)?

I didn't really understand this treatment option. Thanks a lot for the link. I am liking this idea since my tank is so new it sounds better than doing it with an established tank, and also it will allow my family to enjoy the fish still during the treatment period.

I dont have a hydrometer yet since I've been buying the water premade, so looks like I'll need one.

I would put the shrimp, snail, and urchin (forgot to mention I also got an urchin with the 2nd batch of fish) in a second tank 10 gal for this time? Normal salinity, located far away from DT, feed small amounts of flake food? Can it be without a cycled filter and just managed with water changes? Heater and air stone only ok? PVC elbows?

Thanks

Edit: just finished reading both articles. So very helpful, thanks!!

Yes, you must have a hydrometer even if using water from the store, you need to manage salinity for evaporation.

Yes, you would need to move the invertebrates to another holding tank. You can use established filter media to help with any ammonia issues.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Yeah, I ordered a refractometer off amazon this morning. I was looking at the tropic marin hydrometer as well, but it seems like it doesn't go low enough for the levels required for this treatment.

I have a closed lid on the tank currently so not much evap and I've been ATO-ing with DI water and also assuming that with weekly 20% water changes (using the store-bought water) I wouldn't drift too far, but yes, better to actually check the salinity.

 

[maxberter]

Well, sad news update: my coral beauty is dead and I think it's velvet not ich (maybe both). I came home last night with a 10 gallon ready to move the inverts for hyposalinity, but found the coral beauty in very bad shape, covered in spots and breathing fast. He was dead by morning. My understanding is hyposalinity won't treat velvet(?).

Unfortunately I have to go to work for the day. The clownfish has visible symptoms, but no behavorial symptoms yet. The firefish looks fine for the time being. I left the lights off for the day and will check on everyone tonight, but not sure what to do.

Pics of the coral beauty last night and the clownfish this morning.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well, sad news update: my coral beauty is dead and I think it's velvet not ich (maybe both). I came home last night with a 10 gallon ready to move the inverts for hyposalinity, but found the coral beauty in very bad shape, covered in spots and breathing fast. He was dead by morning. My understanding is hyposalinity won't treat velvet(?).

Unfortunately I have to go to work for the day. The clownfish has visible symptoms, but no behavorial symptoms yet. The firefish looks fine for the time being. I left the lights off for the day and will check on everyone tonight, but not sure what to do.

Pics of the coral beauty last night and the clownfish this morning.

Sorry to hear.

The coral beauty has/had ich. In very rare cases, fish can have both ich and velvet, but that is mostly theoretical, I've never seen it myself.

With velvet, the only real symptoms are not eating, very rapid respiration and hovering into water flow. You never really see spots (those are seen in freshwater velvet) towards the end, the fish sometimes show glassy eyes and a fine dust-like coating, but not always. You reported small spots that came and went, that is what ich looks like.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Thanks Jay,
You saw the picture on my last post and still think ich and not velvet? The spots are too numerous to count IMO, which led me to think velvet and not ich. Plus they first appeared and then went away and came back 4 days later, which I thought matched velvet lifecyle. Finally, the fish died so thinking velvet.

But anyway, I've ordered stuff for a QT and copper treatment (in QT tank) and was planning copper treatment now instead of hyposalinity. This should work for both ich and velvet correct?

I am planning to move the clown and firefish to QT, treat with copper and then after treatment observe all while the tank is fallow. I might also get a couple new fish and QT them during the fallow period and then put everyone back in 40 (70?) days.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks Jay,
You saw the picture on my last post and still think ich and not velvet? The spots are too numerous to count IMO, which led me to think velvet and not ich. Plus they first appeared and then went away and came back 4 days later, which I thought matched velvet lifecyle. Finally, the fish died so thinking velvet.

But anyway, I've ordered stuff for a QT and copper treatment (in QT tank) and was planning copper treatment now instead of hyposalinity. This should work for both ich and velvet correct?

I am planning to move the clown and firefish to QT, treat with copper and then after treatment observe all while the tank is fallow. I might also get a couple new fish and QT them during the fallow period and then put everyone back in 40 (70?) days.

Those spots are too large to be true velvet. It is a very severe case of ich.
Velvet does not have a “pause” phase, it hits hard and fast. Ich comes and goes at first.

You will see pictures online (some even here) of fish that look just like yours, and they are labeled velvet - but this is a misdiagnosis.

As I said though, it is possible, but rare, for fish to have both at the same time - copper is the best treatment for that.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Those spots are too large to be true velvet. It is a very severe case of ich.
Velvet does not have a “pause” phase, it hits hard and fast. Ich comes and goes at first.

You will see pictures online (some even here) of fish that look just like yours, and they are labeled velvet - but this is a misdiagnosis.

As I said though, it is possible, but rare, for fish to have both at the same time - copper is the best treatment for that.

Jay

Hi Jay,
Following up on this thread.
My clownfish is still battling a disease, which i think is Brook. I wanted to double check that you think my angelfish died of ich vs. could it possibly have been Brook? Trying to figure out if my tank is infested with one disease or multiple.. attached are a couple more pics of the angelfish the night before it died. Both fish have had spots come and go over periods of days/weeks. Thanks.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,
Following up on this thread.
My clownfish is still battling a disease, which i think is Brook. I wanted to double check that you think my angelfish died of ich vs. could it possibly have been Brook? Trying to figure out if my tank is infested with one disease or multiple.. attached are a couple more pics of the angelfish the night before it died. Both fish have had spots come and go over periods of days/weeks. Thanks.

That was definitely ich on that angelfish. I suppose it is possible for a fish to have brook and ich at the same time (like I've rarely seen with ich and velvet) but angelfish are not particularly prone to Brook. More likely for your clowns to have ich and Brook at the same time. Still would be rare though. What makes you think the clowns have
brook over advanced ich?

In re-reading this thread just now - it isn't clear if you have started any treatment. It's been 12 days - ich is often fatal in half that amount of time. I just assumed you had gotten a treatment started after I posted the information about hyposalinity.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Hi Jay,

Short answer is delay of treatment has been a combination of issues when trying to treat, then considering ich management instead of eradication, then questioning what disease it is (analysis paralysis), and all combined with finding time (I have 3 toddlers).

I was at first going to pull my remaining fish (clownfish and firefish) and treat them in a QT tank and let the display tank fallow. But when I tried to do that I realized there was now way I was going to catch the firefish without tearing down the tank. Around that time the clown was looking better and I decided that I would do ich management instead. I upped the amount of feeds per day.

Then the clownfish started to have symptoms again, but it was more slime and leasions and not spots, so I started believed that he had Brook and not ich (or also ich) and started researching that. I saw that copper and hypo both aren't effective, so I went to my LFS to try to find an Rx for Brook, but he didn't have anything. He recommended a long FW bath + ParaGuard and adding "Fishkeeper" to the display tank. So I did this and the clown did look a lot better the next day.

However, I am now back thinking that this all might be simply advanced ich (KISS). So as of now, the clown is in a 10G QT tank with Copper Power. Hopefully it is ich and he fully recovers. If he does, then I am considering a new plan where I would put him back in the DT with the firefish, pull my inverts to the QT (after cleaning very well and confirming zero copper remaining), and then running the DT at hypo 1.009 for X(?) period of time, before slowly raising the salt back up and adding back the inverts. It is a new tank (no algae die off) with no coral, so it feels like this could work. What do you think? How long would I need to run at 1.009?

Edit: if he doesn't get better then I guess that points to Brook..

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay,

Short answer is delay of treatment has been a combination of issues when trying to treat, then considering ich management instead of eradication, then questioning what disease it is (analysis paralysis), and all combined with finding time (I have 3 toddlers).

I was at first going to pull my remaining fish (clownfish and firefish) and treat them in a QT tank and let the display tank fallow. But when I tried to do that I realized there was now way I was going to catch the firefish without tearing down the tank. Around that time the clown was looking better and I decided that I would do ich management instead. I upped the amount of feeds per day.

Then the clownfish started to have symptoms again, but it was more slime and leasions and not spots, so I started believed that he had Brook and not ich (or also ich) and started researching that. I saw that copper and hypo both aren't effective, so I went to my LFS to try to find an Rx for Brook, but he didn't have anything. He recommended a long FW bath + ParaGuard and adding "Fishkeeper" to the display tank. So I did this and the clown did look a lot better the next day.

However, I am now back thinking that this all might be simply advanced ich (KISS). So as of now, the clown is in a 10G QT tank with Copper Power. Hopefully it is ich and he fully recovers. If he does, then I am considering a new plan where I would put him back in the DT with the firefish, pull my inverts to the QT (after cleaning very well and confirming zero copper remaining), and then running the DT at hypo 1.009 for X(?) period of time, before slowly raising the salt back up and adding back the inverts. It is a new tank (no algae die off) with no coral, so it feels like this could work. What do you think? How long would I need to run at 1.009?

Edit: if he doesn't get better then I guess that points to Brook..

Yes - I understand "analysis paralysis"!

I use a minimum of 30 days at 1.009 for hyposalinity for ich.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

So my clownfish has been in the Cu QT tank since Wednesday morning (confirmed at 2.0+ Copper Power) and I'm seeing some more spots & slim appear. Not a lot yet, but does this basically confirm Brook? He looked better yesterday (I had done a FW+paraguard dip the day before that).

What would you recommend to treat? I have ParaGaurd on hand in addition to Copper Power. Anything else I will need to source from Amazon probably.

It also ruins my plan of hyposalinity for the DT. I almost caught my firefish this morning. I have more confidence I'll eventually be able to do it. So assuming I can catch all my fish and get them into the QT tank, what would be a good approach? Keep the Copper going for 30 days for the ich? Can I treat the Brook at the same time? Leave the DT fallow for 45 days?

Thanks...

 

[Jay Hemdal]

So my clownfish has been in the Cu QT tank since Wednesday morning (confirmed at 2.0+ Copper Power) and I'm seeing some more spots & slim appear. Not a lot yet, but does this basically confirm Brook? He looked better yesterday (I had done a FW+paraguard dip the day before that).

What would you recommend to treat? I have ParaGaurd on hand in addition to Copper Power. Anything else I will need to source from Amazon probably.

It also ruins my plan of hyposalinity for the DT. I almost caught my firefish this morning. I have more confidence I'll eventually be able to do it. So assuming I can catch all my fish and get them into the QT tank, what would be a good approach? Keep the Copper going for 30 days for the ich? Can I treat the Brook at the same time? Leave the DT fallow for 45 days?

Thanks...

Can you post a video? I have much better success diagnosing Brooklynella from videos than I do from still pictures (it is more about how the fish swims).

Also - copper takes 72 hours plus to really get working, so don't rule it out quite yet.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Thanks Jay. I will wait a day or two more. If he gets worse I'll post a video. Looking ok at the moment.

 

[maxberter]

Hi Jay, just an update... The clownfish is looking very good, I think you were right about needing to be a little patient with the Cu treatment. The worst spots above his eye are pretty much fully healed and no slime or spots that I can see.

Not sure what you will think of this, but my plan is to leave him in the Cu tank until this weekend (~11 days) and then return him to the DT. Then I am thinking of just observing the fish until/if I see the ich come back, at which point I would move the inverts to QT and start hyposalinity. I need to break the hospital tank down to remove all the Cu anyway, and I'm hoping maybe for a stint of healthiness where I can just enjoy the fish in the DT for a while (!) without running a hospital tank in the other room too... But maybe I am being too optimistic?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi Jay, just an update... The clownfish is looking very good, I think you were right about needing to be a little patient with the Cu treatment. The worst spots above his eye are pretty much fully healed and no slime or spots that I can see.

Not sure what you will think of this, but my plan is to leave him in the Cu tank until this weekend (~11 days) and then return him to the DT. Then I am thinking of just observing the fish until/if I see the ich come back, at which point I would move the inverts to QT and start hyposalinity. I need to break the hospital tank down to remove all the Cu anyway, and I'm hoping maybe for a stint of healthiness where I can just enjoy the fish in the DT for a while (!) without running a hospital tank in the other room too... But maybe I am being too optimistic?

Can you hold it in copper for longer? My normal recommendation is 30 days. The absolute least time should be 14 days after the symptoms have subsided.

Jay

 

[maxberter]

Yeah, I can do 14, just tiring of frequent water changes/Cu dosing in my partially-cycled QT! I know you recommend 30, but my thinking is that I know I still have ich in the DT that the fish is going back into (since it never went fallow), so with a shorter treatment I'm accepting a risk that that the clownfish could bring back some more ich into the DT. But it would be the same strain that's already in there, so it doesn't seem like much of a risk. Sooner or later I will be hypo-ing the DT regardless. Still learning, so happy to hear if you see fault in my thinking.

 

[maxberter]

@Jay Hemdal
Hi Jay, in pursuit of Ich eradication, I've started the hyposalinity treatment in my DT after removing all the inverts to QT. Currently on my way down to 1.009.
But I have a question on duration. Is hyposalinity only required for 30 days even when doing in the DT? It understand when doing it with fish in a QT system, but I don't understand why it would be 30 days when done in the DT. Why is not the same as a fallow period (45/76 days)? Does the hypo treatment affect the Tomonts?
Thanks.