Again… Ich after 11 Week Fallow Period. About to guve up… UV my last hope… need help sizing.

[daniel_mourra]

@Jay Hemdal …. I give up…
Ok so i am VERY discouraged. After a huge patience test of 11 weeks fallow period on my main DT, after hundreds of dollars spent in QT tanks, water changes, medications, testing and time … On may 23rd i finally returned my fish to the main DT… but guess what? It was all for nothing! (Yes i am venting…)…. 3 days after being in the main DT…. Powder brown and blue hippo tangs started scratching and displaying ich spots again….!!!!! Aparently parasite survived the 76 day fallow period…how? Why? ‍‍

I give up! No more fallow for me.. i am moving to ich management… i currently have a turbo twist 6x UV light (18 watt) on my main DT tank (175 gal)…. But saw that BRSTV refered to these UVs as “Twisty Toys and not very good at their job”.

My next solution is: I can purchase locally a 55 watt JEBAO PJ-PU-55 UV but i am not sure if its overkill and specially AT WHAT FLOW (gph) should i place it to have it correctly tunned for ich? I cannot spend more money purchasing a UV online as i am in honduras and it takes 30+ days to get here and its 3x cost…. Would this locally available JEBAO UV work on my 175gal Main DT? At what flow?

 

[threebuoys]

I use this model on my tank. It is not overkill. But, it will not totally control ich due to the inability to force 100% of the parasites through it.

If you're interested, share some photos and videos of your fish and maybe we will be able to confirm your diagnosis. Sounds as if you have tried to follow protocol but have been unsuccessful. 6 to 8 weeks fallow combine with the 30 day QT copper treatment has been vetted many times. Perhaps we can narrow down what went wrong.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Sorry to hear!

The 76 day fallow period is actually overkill - it was from a study done in a lab at cool temperatures and no bacteria. Real world aquariums actually don’t need that long.

When fallow periods fail there are three typical reasons: 1) misidentification of the parasite (tangs get mucus plugs for example). 2) incomplete treatment of the fish during the fallow period. 3) a break in biosecurity by adding an invertebrate to the tank during the fallow period.

Ich management is an option, but you need to employ every possible technique to improve the chance of success: oversized UV, great water quality, perfect diet, lots of wet skimming, strong mechanical filtration, and nightly siphoning of the gravel, at least at first, to remove tomonts. Some people also do low dose peroxide.

Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

@Jay Hemdal …. I give up…
Ok so i am VERY discouraged. After a huge patience test of 11 weeks fallow period on my main DT, after hundreds of dollars spent in QT tanks, water changes, medications, testing and time … On may 23rd i finally returned my fish to the main DT… but guess what? It was all for nothing! (Yes i am venting…)…. 3 days after being in the main DT…. Powder brown and blue hippo tangs started scratching and displaying ich spots again….!!!!! Aparently parasite survived the 76 day fallow period…how? Why? ‍‍

I give up! No more fallow for me.. i am moving to ich management… i currently have a turbo twist 6x UV light (18 watt) on my main DT tank (175 gal)…. But saw that BRSTV refered to these UVs as “Twisty Toys and not very good at their job”.

My next solution is: I can purchase locally a 55 watt JEBAO PJ-PU-55 UV but i am not sure if its overkill and specially AT WHAT FLOW (gph) should i place it to have it correctly tunned for ich? I cannot spend more money purchasing a UV online as i am in honduras and it takes 30+ days to get here and its 3x cost…. Would this locally available JEBAO UV work on my 175gal Main DT? At what flow?

Please provide pics under white lighting of the fish today as they look with the spots to assure its ich and not something else
What is your tank temperature and salinity level?
Please remind us - What copper product did you use, what treatment level did you use and how long was your treatment period?
Unfortunately turbo twist and Jebao are the least reliable UV units out there with Jebao being the best of the two and better than nothing.

 

[threebuoys]

I'm going to give a different opinion about the jebao UV.

The best I can determine is the UV bulbs used by most if not all vendors are in fact the same. The only mechanical component for most if not all is the transformer. The only metal in the jebao is where the plug for the bulb is located, so little chance for rust. If the intake and outflow fitting are carefully assembled, no leaks. you do have to be careful replacing the bulb. It should be replaced periodically because the bulbs effectiveness deteriorates over time. (True for all UV.) You can't beat the price. Get the largest you have room for. Run your return through the unit.

I have the unit on both of my tanks with no problems for 3 years.

 

[kevgib67]

About 14 months ago I searched ich management threads and this is how I managed it. Installed a uv, Polyp Lab Medic (peroxide salt as Jay Memdal mentioned), fed heavy supplementing with Selcon, Vitachem and garlic extreme as well as increased water changes. No fish loss and no signs of ich in over 14 months. I fully understand ich is still in my tank and if a fish gets stressed and its immune system is lowered I’ll see it again and will repeat. Just letting you know what worked in my tank and I realize everyone’s systems are different.

 

[Lavey29]

About 14 months ago I searched ich management threads and this is how I managed it. Installed a uv, Polyp Lab Medic (peroxide salt as Jay Memdal mentioned), fed heavy supplementing with Selcon, Vitachem and garlic extreme as well as increased water changes. No fish loss and no signs of ich in over 14 months. I fully understand ich is still in my tank and if a fish gets stressed and its immune system is lowered I’ll see it again and will repeat. Just letting you know what worked in my tank and I realize everyone’s systems are different.

I think ich is in every tank. Some can manage it while other struggle. Certain fish are just prone to it also while others seem resistant.

 

[littlefoxx]

Im for sure not a fish medic by any means, @vetteguy53081 and @Jay Hemdal are some of the best on here. When I got velvet in my tank a while back I put just a very basic inexpensive UV from amazon in the back. All fish are back in the DT and doing great. I would swear by the Uv. Give that a shot cause I was super upset when I kept getting some horrible parasites in my tank. I tore one down because of an ich/brook of some kind. But my other two are doing amazing, the one I broke down didnt have a UV. The other two do. Also try getting fish from a LFS or online that do QT, so they are more likely to not introduce anything in the tank. I still QT my fish even from these places but have no issues with fish health

 

[brandon429]

Substrate housing and insulation

use skip cycle tank moves to extract and clean your sandbed, so infections can’t hide

keep it out during a new fallow then put it back cloudless readdition at the end of the new fallow, does your tank have a sandbed

 

[daniel_mourra]

Aparently it was a false alarm… or just stress from being back in the DT… no more signs of spots and nobody is scratching… this is confusing? Might this be the parasites just dropped off to create more?

 

[threebuoys]

Ich can be difficult to diagnose particularly in its early stages. That is a reason we ask for photos and videos. How long has it been since you saw the symptoms that led you to suspect ich? It is true the parasites drop off the fish to begin the next reproduction cycle. However the cycle happens fairly fast. At early stages, spots will appear to come and go as if they are moving on the fish body. Without photos, difficult to determine if your issue may be stress related. Considering your treatment description, odds are in favor of something other than ich.

 

[daniel_mourra]

Hello All! @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Update… powder brown is still alive. Still with white spots that sometimes even appear in the eye and cloud the eye… its been 1.5 months now since the ich dallow period ended (may 23rd) and NO other fish has ANY SYMPTOMS of ich (including a hippo tang that has no signs of anything and no scratching.. all fish look extremly healthy) i HAVENT medicated anything… i havent done anything to it. Just food, mysis shrimp, pelets, lots of nori and Selcom. All Eating perfectly fine…

Any ideas? I really dont thing its ich… 1.5 months (sin may 23rd that the fallow period ended)… and no ither fish has gotten any sings…

 

[KrisReef]

I feed my Ichy fishes chopped live clams that I pick up off the beach or at the supermarket if I don't have any luck at the beach. Oysters also work. Chop them up whole, feed the fish, freeze the rest for tomorrow. Improving diet of my fishes has kept my fish alive with Ich-spots? now and again when they get stressed. I up the food rations and they live, maybe they forget how to die when they are looking forward to their next live food meal? HTH.

 

[Doctorgori]

my ich loses we’re heartbreaking last year until I installed UV’s on my tanks. Not a few month ago 2 failed units had me crying again….
I got things under control using Polylab medic + peroxide but it would be irresponsible to outlay my exact method as I followed no “exact” proven protocol, TBH I overdosed, but it did work…(if using H2O2 remove Turbos, but nerites seem oK)

A safer endorsement would be good diet, clean water and get a good UV,…..
….my sample with Jaebo and other lower end brands isn’t good… given the cost of livestock anymore a quality UV might be a good investment

 

[vetteguy53081]

Hello All! @Jay Hemdal @vetteguy53081

Update… powder brown is still alive. Still with white spots that sometimes even appear in the eye and cloud the eye… its been 1.5 months now since the ich dallow period ended (may 23rd) and NO other fish has ANY SYMPTOMS of ich (including a hippo tang that has no signs of anything and no scratching.. all fish look extremly healthy) i HAVENT medicated anything… i havent done anything to it. Just food, mysis shrimp, pelets, lots of nori and Selcom. All Eating perfectly fine…

Any ideas? I really dont thing its ich… 1.5 months (sin may 23rd that the fallow period ended)… and no ither fish has gotten any sings…

This is cryptocaryon and associated with marine ich. This is also a fish susceptible to this issue as well as velvet.
You will need to place fish in Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

 

[daniel_mourra]

This is cryptocaryon and associated with marine ich. This is also a fish susceptible to this issue as well as velvet.
You will need to place fish in Quarantine tank and treat with Coppersafe or Copper Power at therapeutic level 2.25-2.5 For a FULL 30 days (do not interrupt this 30 day period) monitored by a reliable Copper Test kit such as Hanna Brand- No API brand. Also monitor Ammonia levels while in quarantine with a reliable test kit and add aeration during treatment using an air stone.
The display tank will have to be kept fishless (FALLOW) for 6-8 weeks to assure the existing parasites go through their life cycle without a host fish and die off

I did exactly this for 11 weeks (and 30 days copper power at 2.5 ppm eith hanna checker). He was great during all the fallow period and QT…

It was after returning all fish to the main dt this happened and NO other fish have shown any symptoms…

 

[vetteguy53081]

I did exactly this for 11 weeks (and 30 days copper power at 2.5 ppm eith hanna checker). He was great during all the fallow period and QT…

It was after returning all fish to the main dt this happened and NO other fish have shown any symptoms…

Its either a skin reaction or the fallow was not successful. With fallow, should have been zero fish which sounds like you did and even temperature at 80-81 deg and even a surface siphoning at 5-6 weeks to remove any dead cysts
were any inverts added during fallow?

 

[daniel_mourra]

Yes, fallow was 11 weeks with ZERO fish. Only inverts. Did surface turkey baster about 8 times during fallow. I DID add 2 crabs and a shrimp DURING fallow…. I understand this might have brought ich again but… why is the hippo tang completly healthy? Scopas tang too…. Every single fish is great.. except the powder brown (who is actually ok… he doesnt seem like its iverwhelming for him)….

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yes, fallow was 11 weeks with ZERO fish. Only inverts. Did surface turkey baster about 8 times during fallow. I DID add 2 crabs and a shrimp DURING fallow…. I understand this might have brought ich again but… why is the hippo tang completly healthy? Scopas tang too…. Every single fish is great.. except the powder brown (who is actually ok… he doesnt seem like its iverwhelming for him)….

other fish, no signs- Thats so far. Hippo would be likely next candidate.
For powder blue- you may have to give it a run again in suggested hyposalinity (1.009)

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Yes, fallow was 11 weeks with ZERO fish. Only inverts. Did surface turkey baster about 8 times during fallow. I DID add 2 crabs and a shrimp DURING fallow…. I understand this might have brought ich again but… why is the hippo tang completly healthy? Scopas tang too…. Every single fish is great.. except the powder brown (who is actually ok… he doesnt seem like its iverwhelming for him)….

Visual disease identification is not always possible. I try to look for certain clues. In this case, the spots do look like ich in some images, but later on, they look more like mucus tufts. One diagnostic I use to try and tell the difference between ich trophonts and mucus spots is if the spots are on the fins. Looks like there are some spots on the fish's fins. Ich does that, and mucus spots don't. So - I'd have to conclude that this fish has ich. If it were mine, I'd confirm with a skin scrape, and look at it under a microscope, but I understand that isn't practical for folks at home.

So - what to do? It looks like the system is "managing" the parasite, in that the other fish are fending it off, and this one has not developed a severe disease. You might want to up your game in terms of ich management and see where that goes. Here is a write-up I did on that:

“Ich Management” Because many aquarists mix fish and invertebrates, they are ill-prepared to then treat for marine ich, as the two best treatments, amine-based copper or hyposalinity, cannot be used with invertebrates. A popular technique has then arisen, “ich management”. It is popular not because it works well, but because it is an easier alternative. Be forewarned, it often fails if applied during moderate infections. The reason that it exists as a technique at all is because people find themselves in situations like this and are desperate to try anything.



The basic idea is to reduce the infective propagules (tomites) of the ich parasite to the point where the fish's acquired immunity can fight the infection off. This is done through a series of techniques for stress reduction and tomite limiting. Unfortunately, the ich tomites themselves cause stress to the fish, so if the fish have more than 30 or so trophonts on them, the method often fails.

1) Install a powerful UV sterilizer on the aquarium.

2) Ensure that the fish's diet and water quality are the best you can make them.

3) Keep the water temperature close to 78 degrees F.

4) Siphon off the tank floor nightly to remove as many tomonts as possible.

5) Employ strong filtration to trap as many tomites as possible.

6) Try a proprietary "reef safe" marine ich medication. These rarely cure ich infections on their own, but some may have benefit when combined with other management methods. Avoid the herbal remedies, focus on those that contain peroxide salts. There is, however, some evidence that using peroxides with UV does not work, as the UV can break down the peroxides.

Jay