Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

[mizimmer90]

I’ll have a go, lol. This documents that algal growth rates are nearly maxed out at natural seawater levels, presumably undetectable by us with our test kits. So lowering them but remaining still detectable would have no effect; if folks look hard enough they will probably find research that states the opposite;

Eutrophication on Coral Reefs: What Is the Evidence for Phase Shifts, Nutrient Limitation and Coral Bleaching

Abstract. Coral reefs continue to experience extreme environmental pressure from climate change stressors, but many coral reefs are also exposed to eutroph

academic.oup.com

Interesting article, thanks for sharing! I think this is related the big questions; what are the rate limiting nutrients for corals/algae, what are the levels in our tanks, and how might comparative advantages shift the landscapes?

I may have missed it but the article seems to focus on DIN and points that maybe this is not the rate limiting nutrient, even suggesting light as a major growth factor: "nutrient addition does increase uptake rates dramatically in
many cases for nutrient depleted macrophytes, [though] it is not nec-
essarily coupled with an increase in growth which is largely
dependent on tissue nutrient status and other factors such as
irradiance"

genuine question: do the lights in our tanks/fuges give more or less light than on the reef? I know the sun is more powerful (lighting coming through my window always shines brighter than my lights in the tank lol) but deeper in the waters is this still the case? Let alone spectrum differences.

On the point of rate limiting nutrients, I posted an link to some articles detailing iron enrichment experiments that led to significantly large algae blooms!

Edit: in case it's not clear, I'm very susceptible to "nerd sniping" lol

 

[Garf]

On the point of rate limiting nutrients, I posted an link to some articles detailing iron enrichment experiments that led to significantly large algae blooms!

Yes, iron is supposed to be a limiting nutrient, which growth in a scrubber also requires, perhaps even more so than under low irradiance.

 

[VintageReefer]

I maintain 5ppm no3 and .02 po4 with carbon dosing on a doser… I spend 60 seconds every 4 months filling my doser container with bacto balance lol..

I would say we are both successful with minimum time/involvement in our methods.

That’s the great thing about this hobby - multiple methods out there for people to use. I like the scrubber, it’s eliminated my noisy skimmer, which in turn eliminated emptying the collection cup, which also decreased my need to top off, all saving me time and money. It’s also eliminated water changes, saving more time and money. Have you seen the price of salt these days?!?!

 

[mizimmer90]

Yes, iron is supposed to be a limiting nutrient, which growth in a scrubber also requires, perhaps even more so than under low irradiance.

Exactly, in my model this is the comparative advantage for that nutrient! In the nutrient limited regime, a first order model would predict that the growth is proportional to the advantages. I.e. the instantaneous growth is proportional to the concentration of the nutrient scaled by the advantage

 

[Seansea]

I would say we are both successful with minimum time/involvement in our methods.

That’s the great thing about this hobby - multiple methods out there for people to use. I like the scrubber, it’s eliminated my noisy skimmer, which in turn eliminated emptying the collection cup, which also decreased my need to top off, all saving me time and money. It’s also eliminated water changes, saving more time and money. Have you seen the price of salt these days?!?!

Price of salt is ridiculous. Even crappy reef crystals is off the charts. ITS FREAKIN SALT!!!

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Lol. Ford circled their problem in the center of their grille. At least jeep gives you a nice seat(the front bumper) to sit while you wait for the tow truck

I have a 2020 Ram Rebel. My wife has a 2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. I think my truck is superior to her Jeep. She thinks her Jeep is better than my truck. (pssst...in this case we all KNOW that I'm right, but theres no convincing her. LoL)

 

[VintageReefer]

I have a 2020 Ram Rebel. My wife has a 2020 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon. I think my truck is superior to her Jeep. She thinks her Jeep is better than my truck. (pssst...in this case we all KNOW that I'm right, but theres no convincing her. LoL)

Yea but do ram owners have the Jeep Wave?

 

[VintageReefer]

Price of salt is ridiculous. Even crappy reef crystals is off the charts. ITS FREAKIN SALT!!!

I bought a bucket of reef crystals in 2017 for 50$. It’s almost double now!

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Yea but do ram owners have the Jeep Wave?

Oh, puh-lease don't start with the Jeep Wave"!!! I think the Jeep Wave is code for "your Jeep looks nice, but does it drive as crappy as mine does?"

 

[ScubaSkeets]

I would live to see pics of both!

This is DIY "algae reducer":

This is the screen from today that I'm about to harvest:

This is my tank how I normally view it:

And to be fully transparent, here is the tank with 100%white/0%blues as requested by another member:

Ugly I know. As you can see the rocks still appear to have algae on them, so my tank is certainly not "alage free" like I stated to begin with.
However, what the DT is free of is the long hair algae and tufts of moss that over ran my tank several times before.

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Price of salt is ridiculous. Even crappy reef crystals is off the charts. ITS FREAKIN SALT!!!

Wait. Have I not supposed to have been using Mortons table salt or snow melt salt (depending on the season) for this all this time?
Doh!!

 

[Garf]

Exactly, in my model this is the comparative advantage for that nutrient! In the nutrient limited regime, a first order model would predict that the growth is proportional to the advantages. I.e. the instantaneous growth is proportional to the concentration of the nutrient scaled by the advantage

For what it’s worth, yellowing of the algae is due to inadequate chloroplast production due to low iron. This could be problematic as dinoflagellates have mechanisms for iron scavenging unavailable to green algae and as is the case in nutrient limiting situations, the advantage is handed to small organisms purely through the relationship between surface area and volume.

 

[mizimmer90]

For what it’s worth, yellowing of the algae is due to inadequate chloroplast production due to low iron. This could be problematic as dinoflagellates have mechanisms for iron scavenging unavailable to green algae and as is the case in nutrient limiting situations, the advantage is handed to small organisms purely through the relationship between surface area and volume.

Yup! I fully agree that competition strategies for scare nutrients can be very complicated! In a previous post I mentioned some fun facts. One about siderophores (molecules that are excreted to grab scarce ions and return them to cells!) and another that AOA uses a copper-based biochemistry.

fun facts: 1) many marine microbes have adapted to not use iron-based biochemistry, such as ammonia oxidizing archaea, which have a copper based biochemistry, 2) microbes that do use iron often have elaborate iron sequestering mechanisms, such as one of my faves, siderophores, which actually leave cells and grab necessary ions, then return them to the cell!!

Additionally, @Subsea clued me into this cool article that shows that algaes can use ferritin to store iron in vacuoles (grabs iron when abundant and stores it to persist until its available again).

I love the complex regulatory networks in nature!

 

[Garf]

Additionally, @Subsea clued me into this cool article that shows that algaes can use ferritin to store iron in vacuoles (grabs iron when abundant and stores it to persist until its available again).

I love the complex regulatory networks in nature!

Can’t see the article for some reason but that would suggest a scrubber is even more likely to crash than algae in the display, seeing its discarded so regularly, would it not?

 

[mizimmer90]

Can’t see the article for some reason but that would suggest a scrubber is even more likely to crash than algae in the display, seeing its discarded so regularly, would it not?

I'm not following the logic, could you elaborate? Thanks!

 

[Garf]

I'm not following the logic, could you elaborate? Thanks!

The algae in the display may store iron, as may the scrubber growth. The algae in the scrubber is thrown away with its iron. Under iron limitation, the algae in the display are happily surviving, whilst the algae remnants in the scrubber are up the creek without a paddle. Something along those lines.

 

[mizimmer90]

The algae in the display may store iron, as may the scrubber growth. The algae in the scrubber is thrown away with its iron. Under iron limitation, the algae in the display are happily surviving, whilst the algae remnants in the scrubber are up the creek without a paddle. Something along those lines.

Well I'd imagine that the remnants of the scrubber would have the same stores as what was thrown away since it was all from the same bunch.

My understanding is that the stores are used for survival and the algae isn't necessarily growing; it's waiting until nutrients are sufficient. When the nutrients come back, then the algaes will start to grow again, and at the ratios of the comparative advantages.

It's actually convenient for me because my model implicitly assumes this condition: I didn't include any mechanism for algae to "die" or be removed lol. The curves in my model either grow or stay stagnant

 

[VintageReefer]

The algae in the display may store iron, as may the scrubber growth. The algae in the scrubber is thrown away with its iron. Under iron limitation, the algae in the display are happily surviving, whilst the algae remnants in the scrubber are up the creek without a paddle. Something along those lines.

Having a scrubber minimizes and reduces algae in the display and when setup properly there is an extremely limited amount of algae in the display

If the system developed an iron limitation, nature kicks in - only the strong survives. The scrubber algae would survive over the tank algae. As shown in the photos people kindly submitted, the algae growing in the scrubbers is abundant and thriving and the leftover display algae is minimal

Many people actually understand their iron levels by watching the algae in the scrubber, and supplement iron as needed to maintain healthy growth. At least one person in this thread mentioned having a scrubber and adding iron to their system to help the algae growth

I don’t understand what is meant by “scrubber to crash”. Hypothetically if the iron in the system was so extremely low that both the display and scrubber would lose the ability to grow algae and it would all die…then there would be a period of no algae growth until iron is supplemented, and then the scrubber would regrow algae naturally on its own and repopulate itself

 

[Garf]

Having a scrubber minimizes and reduces algae in the display and when setup properly there is an extremely limited amount of algae in the display

If the system developed an iron limitation, nature kicks in - only the strong survives. The scrubber algae would survive over the tank algae. As shown in the photos people kindly submitted, the algae growing in the scrubbers is abundant and thriving and the leftover display algae is minimal

Many people actually understand their iron levels by watching the algae in the scrubber, and supplement iron as needed to maintain healthy growth. At least one person in this thread mentioned having a scrubber and adding iron to their system to help the algae growth

I don’t understand what is meant by “scrubber to crash”. Hypothetically if the iron in the system was so extremely low that both the display and scrubber would lose the ability to grow algae and it would all die…then there would be a period of no algae growth until iron is supplemented, and then the scrubber would regrow algae naturally on its own and repopulate itself

Probably best if you read the few posts prior to the one you quoted, it’s hypothetical at best.

 

[ScubaSkeets]

@Garf @mizimmer90 @VintageReefer
I may have missed this, because the scientific discussions are waaayÿ over my head.
Could the type of algae that's in the ATS have anything to do with reduction of the algae in the DT? Ive never seen the type of algae thats in my "algae reducer", in the DT.