Algae issues? Why dont more people use algae scrubbers?

[jda]

Here is the voodoo... the algae can grow in a ATS without interruption. This can happen in a fuge too. The algae has to compete/defend/work in the main tank. That is all.

Just knowing and understanding that turf algae cannot grow on top of live and growing coralline is a start. Some folks don't get this, but not purple is actually alive and growing.

 

[ReefDreamz]

Love my ATS. It's a pain to clean once overy 10 days or so but the benefits outweigh the costs IME. I don't do water changes and I feel that the ATS helps keep nutrients stable and at safe levels. I don't think it's an end-all be-all solution to algae problems in the display though. I had a pretty bad hair algae outbreak between months 7 and 11 in my tank and I had the scrubber running that whole time. I think the scrubber helped but I had to do other things to eliminate the hair algae.

 

[mizimmer90]

I don't see how algae in a different part of the system is competing at all with algae in the display - there are more than enough nutrients available all over the system.

I had stated that the basis of the premise is that nutrients are limited. If there are limitless nutrients, of course growing algae does nothing but grow algae. However, I think it's a reasonable assumption that nutrients in this fixed environment ARE limited. It's very common for LC/MS to show low/deficient nutrients in people's tanks.

If the display can grow coral, it can grow algae...algae is really good at life, much better than coral.

This is just not true. The photosynthetic needs of algae is often VERY different than most corals, both in terms of intensity and spectrum. Corals have more than just photosynthetic routes for energy production, and corals have adapted to lower light levels, particularly with more of a blue spectrum for deeper ocean waters.

You can readily see both of these points in your aquarium: 1) Running lights at 100% blues isn't that bad for corals but algae will have a tough time. 2) a 3 day blackout will not kill your corals but will do damage to algae.

Yes, the analogy, like most of analogies, is imperfect. And, the soil being all over the tank supports the idea that algae growing in one part of the system isn't going to stop it from growing in a different part of the system.

Sorry but your analogy wasn't just imperfect, it's wrong. First, nutrient distribution/retrieval in a garden is nothing like nutrients in tank water. And even with that point, weeds DO outcompete other plants for nutrients on the regs.

It's pretty clear that there is a competitive advantage for algae in a refugium/ATS.

 

[jda]

Even if nutrients are limited, how do you get the stuff to grow in the ATS instead of in the tank. The algae seems even less keen to follow directions than my teenagers were. The advantage in the ATS/fuge is lack of consumers and competition, that is all.

I don't know how anybody could say that nutrients are limited in most reef tanks. You can only test for waste products and not throughput - the algae can use the other types of phosphate that you cannot test for and also directly use trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite. Even if you had a DSB keep nitrate at .1 and po4 at 1 ppb, you can still grow algae like crazy in a tank, fuge or whereever - ask me how I know?

 

[mizimmer90]

Even if nutrients are limited, how do you get the stuff to grow in the ATS instead of in the tank. The algae seems even less keen to follow directions than my teenagers were. The advantage in the ATS/fuge is lack of consumers and competition, that is all.

Lighting seems to give a comparative advantage!

I don't know how anybody could say that nutrients are limited in most reef tanks. You can only test for waste products and not throughput - the algae can use the other types of phosphate that you cannot test for and also directly use trace amounts of ammonia and nitrite. Even if you had a DSB keep nitrate at .1 and po4 at 1 ppb, you can still grow algae like crazy in a tank, fuge or whereever - ask me how I know?

First, as Randy pointed out, nutrients are not limited to N and P. Iron manganese, etc. are all important for algae growth but have varying levels of important for corals.

Second, tanks typically only get nutrients in the form off feedings/dosing; it's reasonable to assume that there are a lot of nutrients that are limited because there just isnt a big input stream. Case in point is that significantly upping nutrients will accelerate algae growth in most tanks (other forms of filtration aside). It seems quite plausible that algae is often limited by the excess of nutrients in the tank.

Thus, refugiums and ATSs can mop up those nutrients with the comparative advantage of the lights (whether this is a good decision or not for the whole tank is a separate discussion)

 

[jda]

What is happening in a tank where nutrients can get into one place and not another? If you can grow coral, you can grow algae both with lights and nutrients... the algae is easier to grow, actually, IME.

I would be shocked if anybody on the planet has better lights in their ATS or refugium than I have in my display.

I know a little bit about growing algae... browse on over to my tank thread and look at the photos of throwing away 5g buckets of algae every few weeks. Those would grow in my display better than in my fuge if I let them.

 

[jda]

I really do want to know how a ATS can mop up some nutrients that are available to the whole tank when other locations cannot.

 

[mizimmer90]

What is happening in a tank where nutrients can get into one place and not another?

I dont know what this means?

If you can grow coral, you can grow algae both with lights and nutrients... the algae is easier to grow, actually, IME.

This is not true. There are a ton of conditions (whether through lights or nutrients) where corals can grow well but algae cannot.

I would be shocked if anybody on the planet has better lights in their ATS or refugium than I have in my display.

I know a little bit about growing algae... browse on over to my tank thread and look at the photos of throwing away 5g buckets of algae every few weeks. Those would grow in my display better than in my fuge if I let them.

Are you running full spectrum in your display? Because then you aren't giving the comparative advantage for your fuge. If that's the case, then the fuge still works but not as effectively because of the relative advantages.

 

[mizimmer90]

I know a little bit about growing algae... browse on over to my tank thread and look at the photos of throwing away 5g buckets of algae every few weeks. Those would grow in my display better than in my fuge if I let them.

BTW, I am already familiar with you and your tank (gorgeous of course) but your reputation doesn't change the laws of physics!

 

[jda]

Someday when your tank matures and you have a bit more experience and you figure out that everything that a dude who ran one of the largest reefs in captivity for a living, as well as reefers with more experience than you, was correct... have the guts to come back on here and let us know that you were wrong. Until then just remember some when/if the algae grows in your display as well as your fuge/ATS/whatever.

What you are looking for is biology and not physics.

 

[rtparty]

Someday when your tank matures and you have a bit more experience and you figure out that everything that a dude who ran one of the largest reefs in captivity for a living, as well as reefers with more experience than you, was correct... have the guts to come back on here and let us know that you were wrong. Until then just remember some when/if the algae grows in your display as well as your fuge/ATS/whatever.

What you are looking for is biology and not physics.

Let’s not pretend that well over half of the “anti-ATS” crowd in here is keeping corals we can keep alive in a toilet with nothing more than the bathroom light on.

 

[mizimmer90]

Someday when your tank matures and you have a bit more experience and you figure out that everything that a dude who ran one of the largest reefs in captivity for a living, as well as reefers with more experience than you, was correct... have the guts to come back on here and let us know that you were wrong. Until then just remember some when/if the algae grows in your display as well as your fuge/ATS/whatever.

Wow... let me know when you have an actual point to make instead of appealing to authority. And to think I tried to complement your tank too...

What you are looking for is biology and not physics.

The concept of fitness landscapes is more physics than biology. The point Im trying to make is that we can think of this as a probability landscape. We can do things to make comparative advantages.

 

[ScubaSkeets]

Even if nutrients are limited, how do you get the stuff to grow in the ATS instead of in the tank.

I understand the skeptism, but it's working for me. Maybe it has mostly do with the lighting? My DT runs 100% blues/10% whites, 9 hours a day, plus an hour ramp up/down. And I've been running that for most of the time, give or take a slight adjustment here and there. The light in the algae scrubber runs 24 hours a day and it is just a couple inches from the algae growth.
Attached are pics that I just took of the rocks in the DT and of the algae growth on the mesh in the algae scrubber (I scraped it two days ago) Surely there's something in the scrubber that the algae prefers.

 

[Thales]

This is not true. There are a ton of conditions (whether through lights or nutrients) where corals can grow well but algae cannot.

What are those conditions?

 

[jda]

Let’s not pretend that well over half of the “anti-ATS” crowd in here is keeping corals we can keep alive in a toilet with nothing more than the bathroom light on.

Ironically, bathroom light is enough for most of the algae that we are talking about - I know that you were around for clip-on fuge lights with hardware store bulbs that were awesome. I do not remember any anti ATS folks, just some who are anti the argument that there is somehow some magic in a scrubber that does not happen in other places.

 

[rtparty]

Ironically, bathroom light is enough for most of the algae that we are talking about - I know that you were around for clip-on fuge lights with hardware store bulbs that were awesome. I do not remember any anti ATS folks, just some who are anti the argument that there is somehow some magic in a scrubber that does not happen in other places.

I grew lots of chaeto with a Home Depot clip on and fluorescent bulb.

I think it prudent if both “sides” remember an ATS is a tool, and when used properly, a very good tool.

You and I both know very well it’s a fine line we walk between enough import AND enough export. How we get there is as unique as each of us. I personally have enjoyed both ATS I have run and my tanks have benefitted immensely. My tank did great with a fuge as well but that became a giant mess that almost flooded my basement. That wasn’t the fuge’s fault but was me using the wrong tool. An ATS is the correct tool for my system and can be a great tool for a lot of tanks.

 

[jda]

I have no issues with ATS. I do not want people to think that somehow their display will magically be free of algae if they buy one, you need some sort of magic light to grow turf algae as fast as it wants to grow or that the physical ATS can somehow incorporate/mop-up macro and micro nutrients different than other places in the tank.

Having the tool explained correctly helps, right?

 

[mizimmer90]

What are those conditions?

Blue lights, low iron for one. There are other nutrients that algae needs that can get depleted that corals seem fine without too

 

[jda]

That is not true at all from what I know. @Thales is right... growth limit algae and growth limit photosynthetic corals.

Take iron:

Iron is a limiting nutrient for Symbiodiniaceae (colloquially known as zooxanthellae)

Effect of iron speciation on growth and heat resistance of Symbiodiniaceae

Abstract Iron is a limiting nutrient for Symbiodiniaceae (colloquially known as zooxanthellae),...

www.scielo.br

I cannot think of a single element that is necessary for algae that is not for corals. I do not know them all, so perhaps there is one that I don't know about or forgot. ...physics, I guess.

 

[VintageReefer]

Hey everyone. Don’t use a skimmer. It will only remove organics from a small section of your sump. And we don’t even grow coral there! You can’t remove the fish waste in the display with a skimmer in the sump

The logic here is awful and contradicts known basics of both reef keeping and water circulation