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Algae release "useful proteins, carbohydrates and metabolites."

Scrubber_steve

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No, of course skimmers do not produce oxygen, they only aerate water which in turn increases gas exchange which usually is CO2 out and O2 in but it may also be CO2 in when Kalkwasser is used.
Only when supplied with fresh air. CO2 in a home can be 3000ppm or higher.
But I don't use a skimmer.
 

Hans-Werner

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Yes, but we as long as we can breath it without adverse effects ...

Please do not take my responses as a kind of attack. Also science never deals with absolute truth because there is nothing like absolute truth. It are all only possible explanations for observations made. They may be correct or may be not. What we have to avoid is "operative blindness" and therefore it is always good to bring in some new ideas and test whether there may be an application in reef aquarium care. What we should do here is an exchange of ideas.
 

Scrubber_steve

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Not recognizing your comments as an attack at all. Not my intention either.
I am not disagreeing with the science in general & agree that there are flaws in some methods used to draw explanations. What I am strongly against is people using the science to base an argument on against algae filtration. It's a misrepresentation & ignores evidence to the contrary based on a lot of sucessful systems that use algae, this one an excellent example https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/triton-progress-pictures.184342/
 

Hans-Werner

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I have also kept algae (Halimeda, Caulerpa sertularioides, Asparagopsis) together with scleractinians and without skimming. The fact that corals did not die or even grew well says nothing about interactions between algae and corals. Maybe the corals would have grown better without algae, maybe not. I am quite open to the better answer. Maybe there is a third answer not yet found.

One of the biggest problems in hobby is that most of the knowledge is anecdotal, based on few experiences and good or bad interpretations which are perpetuated while in science the published results base on statistics or proven processes and have to be replicable.

I mean, the idea behind algal filtration is obvious: Algae remove nutrients and supply oxygen, maybe even when the DT is dark and oxygen is needed, so it must be good. I am just asking whether it really is. I am sorry that you seem to feel offended.:(
 

ksed

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@Hans-Werner my apologies if I come across as offending. I certainly not. Just want to show some very successful tanks running on algae filtration.
We could ask the same question as if running LPS in a SPS tank would slow the growth as well.
 

Scrubber_steve

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I have also kept algae (Halimeda, Caulerpa sertularioides, Asparagopsis) together with scleractinians and without skimming. The fact that corals did not die or even grew well says nothing about interactions between algae and corals. Maybe the corals would have grown better without algae, maybe not. I am quite open to the better answer. Maybe there is a third answer not yet found.

One of the biggest problems in hobby is that most of the knowledge is anecdotal, based on few experiences and good or bad interpretations which are perpetuated while in science the published results base on statistics or proven processes and have to be replicable.

I mean, the idea behind algal filtration is obvious: Algae remove nutrients and supply oxygen, maybe even when the DT is dark and oxygen is needed, so it must be good. I am just asking whether it really is. I am sorry that you seem to feel offended.:(
I’m not offended Hans. I’m simply defending an entire method of filtration against an argument based loosely on some science applicable only to extreme situations, & which isn’t near fully understood, & simply ill-adapted. And I have debated few people now who want to do just this, for some reason?

And some of the arguments are plainly unscientific & display anything other than an open mind. A refusal to accept reality is a better description. No evidence will sway their decision. You can say that you’re simply asking if algae filtration is really “good”, but a good example of the above is your statement “The fact that corals did not die or even grew well says nothing about interactions between algae and corals.” So even if corals are growing “well” while using algae filtration, this is not acceptable evidence to you that the algae is not a problem ???

And again “Maybe the corals would have grown better without algae, maybe not.” Both of these statements are paralogical. No amount of positive evidence can ever reach a positive conclusion.

If I was to run a coral reef aquarium to replicate what is happening on a coral reef affected by external forces I would firstly have to establish known problem algae in the display. I would need to remove all algae grazing fish & invertebrates so the algae could grow uninhibited & increase its biomass exponentially, while at the same time maintaining necessary elements & keeping a high level of inorganic nutrients. I would not interfere with the algae, & do nothing in any way to reduce the level of dissolved organics or virulent pelagic bacteria.

I know of no one who would expect the majority of coral species to survive in such conditions. And these conditions do not represent in any way the use of algae filtration.
 

Scott Campbell

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I’m not offended Hans. I’m simply defending an entire method of filtration against an argument based loosely on some science applicable only to extreme situations, & which isn’t near fully understood, & simply ill-adapted. And I have debated few people now who want to do just this, for some reason?

And some of the arguments are plainly unscientific & display anything other than an open mind. A refusal to accept reality is a better description. No evidence will sway their decision. You can say that you’re simply asking if algae filtration is really “good”, but a good example of the above is your statement “The fact that corals did not die or even grew well says nothing about interactions between algae and corals.” So even if corals are growing “well” while using algae filtration, this is not acceptable evidence to you that the algae is not a problem ???

And again “Maybe the corals would have grown better without algae, maybe not.” Both of these statements are paralogical. No amount of positive evidence can ever reach a positive conclusion.

If I was to run a coral reef aquarium to replicate what is happening on a coral reef affected by external forces I would firstly have to establish known problem algae in the display. I would need to remove all algae grazing fish & invertebrates so the algae could grow uninhibited & increase its biomass exponentially, while at the same time maintaining necessary elements & keeping a high level of inorganic nutrients. I would not interfere with the algae, & do nothing in any way to reduce the level of dissolved organics or virulent pelagic bacteria.

I know of no one who would expect the majority of coral species to survive in such conditions. And these conditions do not represent in any way the use of algae filtration.
I have discovered algae growth followed by in-tank consumption of algae (or disturbance and damage to algae by removal) is of great benefit to my corals. My fastest growing corals are right next to clumps of macroalgae being eaten by bristle worms. Allowing algae to simply exist as an undisturbed mass has, however, often proved problematic for me. I do believe algae can change the bacterial make-up of the tank to the detriment of corals. And on occasion release toxins to the detriment of corals. But that doesn't seem to happen if the algae is constantly being eaten, scraped off a screen, yanked from a refugium or otherwise disturbed and damaged. Damaged algae appears to make for a fine source of nutrients. A healthy and undisturbed mass of algae is another matter entirely and can certainly out-compete corals for real estate, food and bacterial control of the tank.

So I think there is a case to say both sides of this debate are correct. Allow algae an opportunity to go on the offensive and there can be poor consequences for corals. Keep algae on the defensive and corals can greatly benefit from the nutrients constantly released by the consumption of and damage to algae. To answer Randy's original question - I do think the nutrients released by algae are helpful and useful *assuming* the algae is in a constant state of degradation. I would not leave a refugium full of macroalgae undisturbed waiting for some of it to die back. That seems like an unnecessary risk.
 

Scrubber_steve

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I have discovered algae growth followed by in-tank consumption of algae (or disturbance and damage to algae by removal) is of great benefit to my corals. My fastest growing corals are right next to clumps of macroalgae being eaten by bristle worms. Allowing algae to simply exist as an undisturbed mass has, however, often proved problematic for me. I do believe algae can change the bacterial make-up of the tank to the detriment of corals. And on occasion release toxins to the detriment of corals. But that doesn't seem to happen if the algae is constantly being eaten, scraped off a screen, yanked from a refugium or otherwise disturbed and damaged. Damaged algae appears to make for a fine source of nutrients. A healthy and undisturbed mass of algae is another matter entirely and can certainly out-compete corals for real estate, food and bacterial control of the tank.
Interesting because damaging algae increases the release of photosynthate - exudate - disolved organic compounds
 

Hans-Werner

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Steve, did you never experience that things seem not reproducible in reef aquaria? Or did you never try a product that seemed without any (positive) effect to you while others wrote great reports? I ask myself if sometimes aquarists just see what they want to see. I have sometimes caught myself doing this too when comparing photographs of i. e. Dendronephthya and there was no growth but I thought it did show growth. Since I also publish results I check them again and again under different circumstances also after publication.

Finally there are a lot of experiences and recommendations in reef aquarium care that I was never able to reproduce under really controlled conditions and controlled separate dosages, like the recommendation to dose nitrate or to lower phosphate to very low concentrations. I have tried to keep SPS under low phosphate concentrations with bad success and had to change my mind after a few years when I finally got out that PO4--- up to 0.1 ppm has no detrimental effect but is rather beneficial. It is not that easy to nail things down. This is one of the most important things I had to learn. So I am quite happy when science is in good agreement with my long term experience and helps me to nail things down. If it is not in agreement with other experiences it is ok but it would help in understanding to give a bit more exact data but just a general report.
 

Lasse

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I do not think anyone have been offended by your post @Hans-Werner. In my case - it is the opposite. I do not see any wrong in the data that has been shown in the linked report but IMO - there is a huge risk that the cause and the effect is mixed. I do not doubt that the microbe community is shifted in a algae dominated part compared with a coral dominate community. IMO - corals predate on microbes in one or another way. IMO - the cause of this (the primary factor) is low predation on corals and bacteria, hence because of algae´s faster growth and more effective use of inorganic nutrients - algae can grow in contact with corals, kill them and grow over them. The formation of other microbial communities in the mucus of corals is the secondary effect of low predation pressure.


IMO the theory of DDAM need a low predation pressure on algae and hence algae comes in close contact with the corals. A situation sometimes not fullfilled in an aquarium with refugium. The algae will release suger but concentration of external (algae produced) DOC in the mucus of corals is not as high that it creates anoxic zones close to the coral tissue - one of the pathways for coral killing described in the video. IMO - It will probably create more microbes in the water, free or attached to particles, hence food for filtrating animals. Note - many corals are filtrating animals too - many of them live on bacteria.

I have a cheato refugium of around 10 % of my water volume. I take out around 30 - 40 grams of chaeto (wet weight) every 14 day. I mix it with a handhold electric mixer to a green juice. Mixt this with 1.5 l of RO water and dispense it during the comming 14 nights into my aquarium. Since I started with this - many of my corals is doing much better and my 4 deresa Clams just love it.

However - I do not use any other DOC into my aquarium for the moment.

Sincerely Lasse
 
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Dr. Dendrostein

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I do not think anyone have been offended by your post @Hans-Werner. In my case - it is the opposite. I do not see any wrong in the data that has been shown in the linked report but IMO - there is a huge risk that the cause and the effect is mixed. I do not doubt that the microbe community is shifted in a algae dominated part compared with a coral dominate community. IMO - corals predate on microbes in one or another way. IMO - the cause of this (the primary factor) is low predation on corals and bacteria, hence because of algae´s faster growth and more effective use of inorganic nutrients - algae can grow in contact with corals, kill them and grow over them. The formation of other microbial communities in the mucus of corals is the secondary effect of low predation pressure.


IMO the theory of DDAM need a low predation pressure on algae and hence algae comes in close contact with the corals. A situation sometimes not fullfilled in an aquarium with refugium. The algae will release suger but concentration of external (algae produced) DOC in the mucus of corals is not as high that it creates anoxic zones close to the coral tissue - one of the pathways for coral killing described in the video. IMO - It will probably create more microbes in the water, free or attached to particles, hence food for filtrating animals. Note - many corals are filtrating animals to - many of them live on bacteria.

I have a cheato refugium of around 10 % of my water volume. I take out around 30 - 40 grams of chaeto (wet weight) every 14 day. I mix it with a handhold electric mixer to a green juice. Mixt this with 1.5 l of RO water and dispense it during the comming 14 nights into my aquarium. Since I started with this - many of my corals is doing much better and my 4 deresa Clams just love it.

However - I do not use any other DOC into my aquarium for the moment.

Sincerely Lasse
@Lasse, I hear that concoction you make, is a luxor to your corals. It intoxicates them. Kinda like alcohol for us.:p
 

Scrubber_steve

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I have a cheato refugium of around 10 % of my water volume. I take out around 30 - 40 grams of chaeto (wet weight) every 14 day. I mix it with a handhold electric mixer to a green juice. Mixt this with 1.5 l of RO water and dispense it during the comming 14 nights into my aquarium. Since I started with this - many of my corals is doing much better and my 4 deresa Clams just love it.

Sincerely Lasse
This is very interesting Lasse. What you are doing is stressing the chaeto to the max & then capturing the chaeto's resultant maximum DOC release, & then feeding this to the corals.
By your observations this has improved the condition of your corals,,,, the opposite of what Hans, & others, & Hass et al are suggesting should occur.
 

Dr. Dendrostein

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This is very interesting Lasse. What you are doing is stressing the chaeto to the max & then capturing the chaeto's resultant maximum DOC release, & then feeding this to the corals.
By your observations this has improved the condition of your corals,,,, the opposite of what Hans, & others, & Hass et al are suggesting should occur.
Yea, @Lasse, he's like a mad scientist, he won't stop, till he figures it out.And don't say CAN'T,
that's not in his vocabulary. Say "can't be done " and he'll make it happen.
 

Scrubber_steve

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Yea, @Lasse, he's like a mad scientist, he won't stop, till he figures it out.And don't say CAN'T,
that's not in his vocabulary. Say "can't be done " and he'll make it happen.
One point worth considering with Lasse's system, is, where as most people will be running a protein skimmer or activated carbon, & this will remove 'DOC' from the water, lasse takes his skimate & returns that to his water.
 

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