Alk consumption but hardly any Calc consumption?

Zeal

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Hi all.

So I’ve noticed that I have hardly any calcium consumption compared to my alkalinity.

I do not dose calc because I hardly see it ever move.

Should I be dosing calc even tho I don’t see it being consumed? I fear that if I dose Calc and there no consumption it’s just gonna sky rocket

also I use B-ionic

62AF4470-755D-4669-B2E7-6C638D39C013.png
 

Dennis Cartier

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Yes, you should dose calc in equal proportions to alk.

The reason you don't see it move is because there is so much more calcium in the water than alk. So the changes in calcium get lost in the noise and are only noticeable over a long period of measuring.

Update: I just noticed you use B-ionic. So even more important to dose both parts in equal amounts as the calcium part contains not only the calcium, but all the other traces and elements to keep things in balance. Definitely dose them both equally.
 
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Yes, you should dose calc in equal proportions to alk.

The reason you don't see it move is because there is so much more calcium in the water than alk. So the changes in calcium get lost in the noise and are only noticeable over a long period of measuring.

Update: I just noticed you use B-ionic. So even more important to dose both parts in equal amounts as the calcium part contains not only the calcium, but all the other traces and elements to keep things in balance. Definitely dose them both equally.
But if I had calc consumption wouldn’t I actually see it dropping? It hardly moves
 

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But if I had calc consumption wouldn’t I actually see it dropping? It hardly moves
Do you think it could have something to do with precipitation? I know with certain high alk salt mixes the alk will start to precipitate out if you let it sit for to long. Just a thought
 
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Do you think it could have something to do with precipitation? I know with certain high alk salt mixes the alk will start to precipitate out if you let it sit for to long. Just a thought
I have no idea… I use Tropic Marin. FWIW
 

Randy Holmes-Farley

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Precipitation consumes alk and calcium together, just like biological calcification.

It is normal to "see" less calcium even when all of the alk and calcium is used proportionally sincealk drops on a percentage basis much faster than calcium due to the large reservoir of calcium in seawater.

That said, there are a few processes tha timpact alk and not calcium. Rising nitrate consumes alk and not calcium.

This has more:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

for example:

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.
 
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Precipitation consumes alk and calcium together, just like biological calcification.

It is normal to "see" less calcium even when all of the alk and calcium is used proportionally sincealk drops on a percentage basis much faster than calcium due to the large reservoir of calcium in seawater.

That said, there are a few processes tha timpact alk and not calcium. Rising nitrate consumes alk and not calcium.

This has more:

When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance? by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

for example:

Apparent Excess Demand for Alkalinity

One of the most common complaints of new aquarists is that their aquaria seem to need more alkalinity than their balanced additive system, such as limewater, is supplying. While there are reasons this may actually be the case over the long term (these will be detailed later in this article), frequently these aquarists are seeing a "chemical mirage" rather than a real excess demand for alkalinity.

One of the interesting features of seawater is that it contains a lot more calcium than alkalinity. By this I mean that if all of the calcium in seawater (420 ppm; 10.5 meq/L) were to be precipitated as calcium carbonate, it would consume 21 meq/L of alkalinity (nearly 10 times as much as is present in natural seawater). In a less drastic scenario, let's say that calcium carbonate is formed from aquarium water starting with an alkalinity of 3 meq/L that it is allowed to drop to 2 meq/L (a 33% drop). How much has the calcium declined? It is a surprise to many people to learn that the calcium would drop by only 20 ppm (5%). Consequently, many aquarists observe that their calcium levels are relatively stable (within their ability to reproducibly test it), but alkalinity can vary up and down substantially. This is exactly what would be expected, given that the aquarium already has such a large reservoir of calcium.

So the first "deviation" from the rule of calcium and alkalinity balance really isn't a deviation at all. If an aquarist is supplying a balanced additive to his aquarium, and calcium seems stable but alkalinity is declining, it may very well be that what is needed is more of the balanced additive, not just alkalinity. This scenario should be assumed as the most likely explanation for most aquarists who should look for more esoteric explanations for alkalinity decline only if calcium RISES substantially while alkalinity falls. Likewise, if alkalinity is rising and calcium seems stable when using a balanced calcium and alkalinity additive system, the most likely explanation is that too much of the additive system is being used.

The real imbalance effects described later in this article take effect slowly, and are manifested over weeks, months and years. This short term "chemical mirage" caused simply by the mathematics of calcium and alkalinity additions can be seen in a single addition. Any effect that develops rapidly over the course of a few days is almost certainly not a true imbalance.

The following scenarios show what can happen to a reef aquarium whose dosage with a balanced additive system does not match its demand. Table 1 shows what can happen when the dosing is inadequate. Alkalinity drops fairly rapidly. After two days, many aquarists might conclude that they need additional alkalinity, when in reality, they need more of both calcium and alkalinity to stabilize the system.

Table 2 shows what happens when too much of a balanced additive is added. After a few days, many aquarists would conclude that alkalinity is rising too much, but that calcium is fairly stable. Again, what is needed is less of the balanced additive, not just less alkalinity.
So… from what I understand not dosing calcium can cause Alk to drop and increase rapidly?

I just ordered a 2nd Kamoer x1 and it should be here today. Is there anything I can do to fix any issues in the tank chemistry wise?

I dose 1ML of Alk of B-Ionic 10 times a day so when I get the doser I should also start with 1ML of calc 10 times a day?
 
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Zeal

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Also, because im not dosing calc does it have any negative side effects to the tank/corals???
 

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So… from what I understand not dosing calcium can cause Alk to drop and increase rapidly?

No. The reason to dose calcium in balance is that 1. it is easier and 2. calcium kits cannot readily detect the day to day small changes. If you go weeks without dosing any and values are still Ok with a reliable kit, it's ok to not dose any.

But waiting until you readily detect a 40 ppm drop, you may end up just adding close to what you would have added over the whole intervening time if you had been dosing all along.

In any case, calcium moves slowly up or down and can be tweaked over weeks to months. It should not be tweaked every day or two.
 
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No. The reason to dose calcium in balance is that 1. it is easier and 2. calcium kits cannot readily detect the day to day small changes. If you go weeks without dosing any and values are still Ok with a reliable kit, it's ok to not dose any.

But waiting until you readily detect a 40 ppm drop, you may end up just adding close to what you would have added over the whole intervening time if you had been dosing all along.

In any case, calcium moves slowly up or down and can be tweaked over weeks to months. It should not be tweaked every day or two.
Ah ok, so I have not dosed calcium in months and I hardly ever see it move. Like at all if anything it goes up and down 5 5 every so often.

If I start dosing 1ml of alk 10 times a day and it's not being consumed wouldn't that just increase my calc?

Also, not dosing calc is there any negative side effects to the corals? I noticed I have particular issues keeping montis alive. I wonder if that has anything to do with not dosing Calc?

Edit: What I fail to understand is why do I have to dose calcium if its not really being consumed if at all.
 
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Are you monitoring nitrate?

How big is the tank? (Needed to judge the expected calcium demand from your alk dose)

Id personally dose both equally based on alk demand unless calcium eventually got up to 500 ppm. The calcium part does more than just add calcium,

That said, it’s also ok to dose none if water changes are maintaining it.
 
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Zeal

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Are you monitoring nitrate?

How big is the tank? (Needed to judge the expected calcium demand from your alk dose)

Id personally dose both equally based on alk demand unless calcium eventually got up to 500 ppm. The calcium part does more than just add calcium,

That said, it’s also ok to dose none if water changes are maintaining it.
Yes, as of Friday my Nitrate (Hanna Checker HR) was 11.8 Phosphorus is 0.012(Hanna ULR checker)

And the tank is 105G. I attached a picture of it for reference.

Edit: I do bi-weekly WC, I also use B-Ionic if that matters for dosing. If the calcium part adds more than just calcium I wonder if that attributes to my issue with montis...
93793082-BB60-497B-BE65-62C31584D1B9.jpeg
 

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Adding the full 10 mL of normal ESV Bionic to 105 gallons will only boost calcium by 1.5 ppm per day. I’d just do it and watch calcium once a week over the next few weeks to see how it’s going.
 
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Adding the full 10 mL of normal ESV Bionic to 105 gallons will only boost calcium by 1.5 ppm per day. I’d just do it and watch calcium once a week over the next few weeks to see how it’s going.
WIll do that, should I dose 10ML at once or throughout the day?
 

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WIll do that, should I dose 10ML at once or throughout the day?

Makes no difference at all. Even 70 mL once a week is fine. That’s still only a 10 ppm change in calcium.
 

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Yes, as of Friday my Nitrate (Hanna Checker HR) was 11.8 Phosphorus is 0.012(Hanna ULR checker)

And the tank is 105G. I attached a picture of it for reference.

Edit: I do bi-weekly WC, I also use B-Ionic if that matters for dosing. If the calcium part adds more than just calcium I wonder if that attributes to my issue with montis...
93793082-BB60-497B-BE65-62C31584D1B9.jpeg
If that Phosphorus number is right (0.012 ppm), then that may be part of the issue. Monti's like more nutrients in the water than the more finicky acros, and 0.012 ppm is too little phosphate to keep them happy long term.

If the number is correct, you can either dose to get it higher, or feed some high phosphate foods, like Reef Roids.
 
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If that Phosphorus number is right (0.012 ppm), then that may be part of the issue. Monti's like more nutrients in the water than the more finicky acros, and 0.012 ppm is too little phosphate to keep them happy long term.

If the number is correct, you can either dose to get it higher, or feed some high phosphate foods, like Reef Roids.
I do struggle to keep phosphate up... At this point I'm running my GFO once a day for 7 hours
 

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I do struggle to keep phosphate up... At this point I'm running my GFO once a day for 7 hours
I would confirm that number, 0.012 ppm, and if correct, take the GFO offline. There is no reason to be running GFO if you are at 0.012.

Then just monitor you PO4 level and only put the GFO back online if it starts to get out of control (0.15+).

I expect your montis will reward you with growth.
 
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I would confirm that number, 0.012 ppm, and if correct, take the GFO offline. There is no reason to be running GFO if you are at 0.012.

Then just monitor you PO4 level and only put the GFO back online if it starts to get out of control (0.15+).

I expect your montis will reward you with growth.
Sadly my duel reactor also has the carbon and I like to run carbon.. anything I can do to replace that?
 
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