Alkalinity/Calcium Daily drop with no livestock

[Jeff Miotke]

Great!! Didn't you say PO4 was undetectable? You may hit "absolute zero" PO4 if you dose NO3 without also adding PO4, and that would be very bad. The pellet approach may help this situation though since pellets are high in phosphate, just be aware it could happen. I have nitrate dosed with great success many times, but when I tried it on my current reef about a year and a half ago, I hit absolute zero PO4, and it took months for the Acros to recover.

Are you still adding any bacteria/NP Pro or using any other nutrient reduction resins/medias/liquids/etc? If so, if you cut that back then your tank may be able to repair itself which is always the easy answer. For example, I was in a similar situation as you last year (after recovering from the NO3 dosing lol), with no nutrients. I was also using Aquaforest (currently for over a year now). I stopped using Pro BioS/NP Pro, removed the Siporax from the sump, and started removing the skimmer cup at night (left skimmer running). That's all it took to get some nutrients in my tank, well that and feeding the fish 5x per day.

Keep us updated!

Yes, that is correct, I stopped bacteria/NP Pro back in November. Removed the Marine Pure block a few weeks ago. I will continue feeding heavily which makes me happy as my fish are doing great. Will keep posting my readings and observations as Im sure there will be some tweaking to the current plan.

Thanks!

 

[Anirban]

I think it is pretty clear in this post that I made a huge mistake. Let me explain how that mistake happened.

I have been out of the reef hobby for 20 years and my previous time was short lived due to relocating. I have been doing freshwater planted tanks in the meantime quite successfully. When I got the itch to get back into the reef hobby last year, I wanted to simplify things by using a system and a set of products designed to be used together. There are a few of them out there and after reading the information on them I decided to proceed with Aquaforest. As I wanted to keep SPS i followed their guide for "SPS Coral aquarium run by Aquaforest Probiotic Method".

Here is the guide and what I did:

"1. Disolve the salt, add nitrification bacteria and filter media"
9/3/2016 Dissolved the probiotic salt and added BioS per the instrutions. Filter media was protein skimmer, GAC and a marine Pure block and filter socks.

"2. Populate the aquarium no sooner than 14 days from day 1(If NO2 and NH4 are not present).We recommend that every animal or coral is introduced into the aquarium gradually so the biological balance is not disturbed."
10/26/2016 there was no measured values of NH4 or NO2. Added 2 clownfish and seven frags of LPS, SPS and Zoas. Started dosing NP Pro and Pro BioS as shown in the guide. Also during this time I had another 20 frags in QT waiting to be placed in the display tank.

"3. After the settlement of life in aquarium we recommend to use following products: (If the tests show decreases of Ca, KH, Mg)"
My tests clearly showed that Ca and KH were low. I started dosing the Component 123 as per the guide.

"4. Feeding livestock. The dosage of each supplement depends on the number, size of fish and corals as well as quantity of administered food."
I was dosing the AF Energy, AF Build, AF Amino Mix and AF Vitality per the instructions on the bottles.

So I followed the guide. Maybe my interpretation of the guide was bad. Maybe I missed something in the guide, maybe some fine print somewhere. What was my mistake? Following the guide?

Anyhow this is the result of following the guide and what I have done since then:
There were signs that things were not going well. Like tank uglies with brown and red slime appearing for a week and then dissappearing and then coming back even worse. Corals slowly browning and losing color. STN of the SPS. By the end of November I knew things were not right and sought out help from the LFS and local reef club. They advised me to stop AF line of products and go to tried and true products. That is what I did. I used BRS 2 part to try to increase the ever falling values of CA and KH to see if I could stabalize the system. Which obviously failed and noone could explain why they were falling in the first place accept for precipitation. Which I could not find in the tank. I even did a reset of the water (90% at least) with the AF Reef Salt (no probiotic). Ive stopped dosing altogether and let the KH value bottom out in the low 5's. Then tried to bring up the values by 2 part dosing. To make matters worse no matter how much Ive overfed the fish the NO3 and PO4 levels are measuring 0. Anyhow, now I'm here and I think Brew12 has given me solid advice which I am following. For the first time in weeks I feel hope.

Hi Jeff,
Technically speaking you did nothing wrong. You followed the instruction pretty good like any other experienced reefer. You are not the only one who has trouble using the AF product line. I generally try to be logical and rational. Over my experience with the product line I can tell you its a nice combination of different methods but its a bit complicated. Suppose when you started the system you used probiotic salt nothing bad in it but it was not needed. When you are adding that salt you are overdriving the system with loads of bacteria, amino acid and vitamins. Question is why? You don't need amino acid and vitamin in a empty tank. Overdosing probiotics in addition with amino and vitamin can shift the nutrient balance towards negative side. That exactly what happened. Also all these companies including AF and Zeovit which tell their customer to add corals and fish after 14 days but I personally really don't think we should do that. For fish ok but the corals may be much later once the fishes are there for some time. The system once set new from dry rocks will leach PO4 for long time to mature. I know people add SPS in their zeovit tank after a month but it needs very fine tuning of overall system. ULNS is a wire on which you need to keep excellent balance and control if you miss it hits you pretty bad. I personally never runs ULNS as I dont have time to do so much fine tuning. May be I will do it once my reef settles down. I play with colours by changing elemental composition which I like. I will say keep those parameters steady and keep the nutrient up. Once you settle down I will work with you slowly to get the whole system working perfectly. But before that we need stability both biological and chemical so lets work towards that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Lol,
What is the "Redfield ratio" used for?

It isn't (or shouldn't) really be used for anything. It is neither a target ratio in the tank, nor an expected tank consumption ratio.

 

[GoVols]

It isn't (or shouldn't) really be used for anything. It is neither a target ratio in the tank, nor an expected tank consumption ratio.

Thank You!

I just try to shoot for your parameter sheet. Phos. a tad low. Nitrates spot on. Reef doing great.

 

[Myka]

Hey @Jeff Miotke , I just finished the last 3 pages of the thread now. I have an idea. Why don't you use water from the frag tank for waterchanges in the display tank? The frag tank is doing well you say. The NO3 and PO4 numbers are desirable. The water from the frag tank will help to introduce a better bacteria balance in your display tank.

For CUC, try a Tuxedo Urchin for cleaning up your rocks. They eat lots of algae that snails and hermits won't touch. Trochus Snails are another good multi-algae consumer. I don't see any signs of dinos or cyano, so I don't think that is your issue. Once the clean up crew eats the algae that algae won't be able to uptake all the nutrients from the water column, so that should also help with your water column nutrient levels. CUC can be a game changer - people tend to not give them enough credit.

I disagree with Anriban's suggestion to use NP Pro at half dose as I've seen "bad bacteria situations" happen from organic carbon dosing. I do think that's what happening in your tank. I would not suggest adding ANY type of organic carbon in any form in any amount. I don't think that adding ProBioS would do any harm though.

Brew was asking for help from someone with more experience regarding bacteria problems. In situations like yours, I've seen ("good") bacteria additions help, but your best bet IME is to try a different brand so that you're increasing the chances of bacterial variation/biodiversity. I've had very good success using Prodibio BioDigest (since about 2008 or so). This is the best "maintenance" bacteria product in the market IMO. You add the vials once every 14 days.

Regarding foods, I do apologize, I want to go back on what I said now that I read about the slime in your socks (lol that sounds weird). I think you should actually reduce feeding. Excess fish poop/uneaten foods are excellent host for "bad" bacteria. At some point you will have enough CUC and microfauna (copepods, live mysis, etc) that they will be able to process all the fish poop/uneaten foods/bacteria that you will achieve a better balance. Right now your tank is not diverse enough.

Your FW tanks are amazing! I think with all your experience in FW tanks you're trying to achieve too "clean" of a tank. Reef tanks need biodiversity in order to be really healthy. The biodiversity in an ounce of reef-zone ocean water compared to an ounce of Amazon river water (or W.H.Y.) is astronomical. If you go back to basics with your tank, I think you will be able to turn a corner and achieve great success.

One last thing, I'd be curious what a Triton test would say about your tank.

Does that help a bit more?

 

[taylorjonl]

I noticed you have a Marine Pure block. AFAIK those are known to leech aluminum and aluminum can cause issues with certain corals. It would be interesting to see Triton test results from your system. Anyways, I would evaluate the corals you plan on getting against their tolerance with aluminum before I put that thing back in the sump. It is probably overkill unless you are having a hard time keeping nitrates low which is definitely not an issue right now.

 

[Brew12]

Brew was asking for help from someone with more experience regarding bacteria problems. In situations like yours, I've seen ("good") bacteria additions help, but your best bet IME is to try a different brand so that you're increasing the chances of bacterial variation/biodiversity. I've had very good success using Prodibio BioDigest (since about 2008 or so). This is the best "maintenance" bacteria product in the market IMO. You add the vials once every 14 days.

And I am thrilled to have you here! I do wish you would have joined in the conversation a few pages earlier though!

@Jeff Miotke - I knew I recognized the name Myka from previous threads but I had to do some digging to figure out where from. I hope I have given you good advice once we have gotten through some of the noise and gathered more information. Myka would be a much better source for information on this than I am. I wouldn't have thought about using a better blend of bacteria to combat the "bad" bacteria in your system. This is actually a really good concept and trying to get it from your frag tank is cheap and easy. Since Myka is up to speed on everything I would highly recommend following any advice offered. I will still follow along, and feel free to reach out to me if you want, but you are in better hands!

 

[GoVols]

And I am thrilled to have you here! I do wish you would have joined in the conversation a few pages earlier though!

@Jeff Miotke - I knew I recognized the name Myka from previous threads but I had to do some digging to figure out where from. I hope I have given you good advice once we have gotten through some of the noise and gathered more information. Myka would be a much better source for information on this than I am. I wouldn't have thought about using a better blend of bacteria to combat the "bad" bacteria in your system. This is actually a really good concept and trying to get it from your frag tank is cheap and easy. Since Myka is up to speed on everything I would highly recommend following any advice offered. I will still follow along, and feel free to reach out to me if you want, but you are in better hands!

Good to Know!
@Myka I'm sorry and please help me down the road too.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Hey @Jeff Miotke , I just finished the last 3 pages of the thread now. I have an idea. Why don't you use water from the frag tank for waterchanges in the display tank? The frag tank is doing well you say. The NO3 and PO4 numbers are desirable. The water from the frag tank will help to introduce a better bacteria balance in your display tank.

For CUC, try a Tuxedo Urchin for cleaning up your rocks. They eat lots of algae that snails and hermits won't touch. Trochus Snails are another good multi-algae consumer. I don't see any signs of dinos or cyano, so I don't think that is your issue. Once the clean up crew eats the algae that algae won't be able to uptake all the nutrients from the water column, so that should also help with your water column nutrient levels. CUC can be a game changer - people tend to not give them enough credit.

I disagree with Anriban's suggestion to use NP Pro at half dose as I've seen "bad bacteria situations" happen from organic carbon dosing. I do think that's what happening in your tank. I would not suggest adding ANY type of organic carbon in any form in any amount. I don't think that adding ProBioS would do any harm though.

Brew was asking for help from someone with more experience regarding bacteria problems. In situations like yours, I've seen ("good") bacteria additions help, but your best bet IME is to try a different brand so that you're increasing the chances of bacterial variation/biodiversity. I've had very good success using Prodibio BioDigest (since about 2008 or so). This is the best "maintenance" bacteria product in the market IMO. You add the vials once every 14 days.

Regarding foods, I do apologize, I want to go back on what I said now that I read about the slime in your socks (lol that sounds weird). I think you should actually reduce feeding. Excess fish poop/uneaten foods are excellent host for "bad" bacteria. At some point you will have enough CUC and microfauna (copepods, live mysis, etc) that they will be able to process all the fish poop/uneaten foods/bacteria that you will achieve a better balance. Right now your tank is not diverse enough.

Your FW tanks are amazing! I think with all your experience in FW tanks you're trying to achieve too "clean" of a tank. Reef tanks need biodiversity in order to be really healthy. The biodiversity in an ounce of reef-zone ocean water compared to an ounce of Amazon river water (or W.H.Y.) is astronomical. If you go back to basics with your tank, I think you will be able to turn a corner and achieve great success.

One last thing, I'd be curious what a Triton test would say about your tank.

Does that help a bit more?

Thanks Myka. I do have some questions that have bothered me from the beginning.

1. How do I get microfauna in the tank without live rock? I have been really paranoid about adding pests which is probably the crux of the issue. Should I just get a small amount of live rock?
2. So try to get 1 Tuxedo Urchin and then add how many trochus snails?

yea the frag tank is doing pretty well. Its really not a frag tank but a QT tank. I did take a piece of rock rubble from the frag tank and put it in the display tank on Monday. It came from a friend in December. It was just a white chunk from his sump. It encrusted with coralline while in the frag tank and looks really nice in the display tank. I have a photo of it earlier in this thread. Just as an aside my first attempt at a frag tank was a disaster because i was doing the same AF guide. In November I knocked it down completely and cleaned it all up and reset it up from scratch just using AF reef salt and minimal 2 part dosing like 1 to 2 ml/week.

I tried to do the same thing to the Display tank with a 90% water change but apparently the rock/sand and leaving the 10% water was enough to continue the issues.

Measurements from today:

Alk 7.9
Ca 425
NO3 .75
PO4 0

I just added 0.8g of KNO3

Also ordered a 12 pk of prodibio bio digest

 

[Myka]

And I am thrilled to have you here! I do wish you would have joined in the conversation a few pages earlier though!

Me too!!! Too many pages to read. Haha. I rarely read all the pages.

Good to Know!
@Myka I'm sorry and please help me down the road too.

No worries. I only have one feeling, and I won't let it get hurt.

 

[Myka]

Thanks Myka. I do have some questions that have bothered me from the beginning.

1. How do I get microfauna in the tank without live rock? I have been really paranoid about adding pests which is probably the crux of the issue. Should I just get a small amount of live rock?
2. So try to get 1 Tuxedo Urchin and then add how many trochus snails?

You will get microfauna as you buy more corals. They will come as hitchhikers. This lack of microfauna is my main reason for not using dry rock. I have an aquarium service company, and I can tell you from experience that "live rock" tanks are much, much easier to maintain than "dry rock" tanks for the first couple years. After 18-24 months they are pretty much the same, but it takes a long time for the dry rock tanks to catch up. I also find "dry rock" tanks are prone to vermetid infestation and I have no idea why. As far as pests go, I really think people put way too much fear into pests. I have yet to run into a pest that caused me more than a few weeks of grief. Dry rock causes me many months of grief, so it's an easy choice for me. I digress, you may find that adding 2-4 cups of relatively clean sand from a friend's tank would help. A ball of Chaeto algae from a friend will often host a bunch of microfauna as well - tie it onto a rock and let it hang out in your sump for awhile. It can even hang out in your display. It won't get rampant on you. Don't use Caulerpa algae lol. I'd start with the Tuxedo Urchin and maybe 5 small or 3 large Trochus. Give it a couple weeks, and add more if needed.

yea the frag tank is doing pretty well. Its really not a frag tank but a QT tank. I did take a piece of rock rubble from the frag tank and put it in the display tank on Monday. It came from a friend in December. It was just a white chunk from his sump. It encrusted with coralline while in the frag tank and looks really nice in the display tank. I have a photo of it earlier in this thread. Just as an aside my first attempt at a frag tank was a disaster because i was doing the same AF guide. In November I knocked it down completely and cleaned it all up and reset it up from scratch just using AF reef salt and minimal 2 part dosing like 1 to 2 ml/week.

Wow, that really goes to show that following the directions is NOT the way to go! Ha! Actually, I think a big weakness to Aquaforest is their communication. Like, who wrote that "guide" anyway?

Measurements from today:

Alk 7.9
Ca 425
NO3 .75
PO4 0

I just added 0.8g of KNO3

Also ordered a 12 pk of prodibio bio digest

This is looking really good on paper now. I'm still a bit concerned about the PO4. Is that the Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker you're using? It may be worth sending off a sample to Triton to see just how low you are and check if there's anything else that's "way off". I found my tank was REALLY low in sulfate using the Aquaforest 1+2+3+ and Probiotic salt mix. I've now made a hybrid 4-part 1+2+3+ version of my own using Magnesium sulfate. I'm due for another Triton test to see if I've corrected the issue.

You're on the right track, now we all just have to watch and wait.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

You will get microfauna as you buy more corals. They will come as hitchhikers. This lack of microfauna is my main reason for not using dry rock. I have an aquarium service company, and I can tell you from experience that "live rock" tanks are much, much easier to maintain than "dry rock" tanks for the first couple years. After 18-24 months they are pretty much the same, but it takes a long time for the dry rock tanks to catch up. I also find "dry rock" tanks are prone to vermetid infestation and I have no idea why. As far as pests go, I really think people put way too much fear into pests. I have yet to run into a pest that caused me more than a few weeks of grief. Dry rock causes me many months of grief, so it's an easy choice for me. I digress, you may find that adding 2-4 cups of relatively clean sand from a friend's tank would help. A ball of Chaeto algae from a friend will often host a bunch of microfauna as well - tie it onto a rock and let it hang out in your sump for awhile. It can even hang out in your display. It won't get rampant on you. Don't use Caulerpa algae lol. I'd start with the Tuxedo Urchin and maybe 5 small or 3 large Trochus. Give it a couple weeks, and add more if needed.



Wow, that really goes to show that following the directions is NOT the way to go! Ha! Actually, I think a big weakness to Aquaforest is their communication. Like, who wrote that "guide" anyway?



This is looking really good on paper now. I'm still a bit concerned about the PO4. Is that the Hanna ULR Phosphorus checker you're using? It may be worth sending off a sample to Triton to see just how low you are and check if there's anything else that's "way off". I found my tank was REALLY low in sulfate using the Aquaforest 1+2+3+ and Probiotic salt mix. I've now made a hybrid 4-part 1+2+3+ version of my own using Magnesium sulfate. I'm due for another Triton test to see if I've corrected the issue.

You're on the right track, now we all just have to watch and wait.

Thanks. Ill get some chaeto/sand from a friend soon.
Will stop by the LFS's to see if they have the urchin/snails.
The checker is the Phosphate version. So not ULR version. I didnt even realize there were 2 different models when I bought. Should I switch?

 

[anit77]

Yea Jeff, Hanna has 2 Phosphate and 2 Phosphorus checkers. If you have the LR Phosphate one the error margin of that checker is +/- 4% or .04ppm. That means you could very well be higher than zero and be within the tolerance of the checker when it reads zero. The ULR Phosphorus checker has an accuracy of 5% or 5ppb, which is .005ppm. While it reads organic Phosphate and inorganic Phosphorus together it still gives you a much higher accuracy and is better for reef tanks.

I have a ULR checker I can loan you if you'd like to use it.

 

[zachxlutz]

Thanks. Ill get some chaeto/sand from a friend soon.
Will stop by the LFS's to see if they have the urchin/snails.
The checker is the Phosphate version. So not ULR version. I didnt even realize there were 2 different models when I bought. Should I switch?

Jeff,

If you'd like to borrow my Hannah ULR I'd be more than happy to let you borrow it. I've got a huge ball of chaeto in my sump with tons of pods and pineapple sponges and little critters crawling around if you're interested. I'm in Lawrenceville.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Yea Jeff, Hanna has 2 Phosphate and 2 Phosphorus checkers. If you have the LR Phosphate one the error margin of that checker is +/- 4% or .04ppm. That means you could very well be higher than zero and be within the tolerance of the checker when it reads zero. The ULR Phosphate checker has an accuracy of 5% or 5ppb, which is .005ppm. While it reads organic Phosphate and inorganic Phosphorus together it still gives you a much higher accuracy and is better for reef tanks.

I have a ULR checker I can loan you if you'd like to use it.

Thanks! I just looked and I can use my phosphate checker on my planted tank. So Ill pick up the ULR.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yea Jeff, Hanna has 2 Phosphate and 2 Phosphorus checkers. If you have the LR Phosphate one the error margin of that checker is +/- 4% or .04ppm. That means you could very well be higher than zero and be within the tolerance of the checker when it reads zero. The ULR Phosphate checker has an accuracy of 5% or 5ppb, which is .005ppm. While it reads organic Phosphate and inorganic Phosphorus together it still gives you a much higher accuracy and is better for reef tanks.
.

Just to clarify, the Hanna HI736 claims a phosphorus uncertainty of 5 ppb, which is the equivalent of 0.015 ppm phosphate.

http://hannainst.com/hi736-phosphorus-ulr.html

So by that uncertainty, a reading of zero could be as high as 0.015 ppm phosphate.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Just to clarify, the Hanna HI736 claims a phosphorus uncertainty of 5 ppb, which is the equivalent of 0.015 ppm phosphate.

http://hannainst.com/hi736-phosphorus-ulr.html

So by that uncertainty, a reading of zero could be as high as 0.015 ppm phosphate.

I see. Now that I look closely these two checkers are measuring different things. Would there really be any advantage in my situation to measure Phosphorus over phosphate?

 

[anit77]

I see. Now that I look closely these two checkers are measuring different things. Would there really be any advantage in my situation to measure Phosphorus over phosphate?

It's the higher accuracy at a lower resolution. Take Zach or myself up on the offer to use one of ours. Then you can see if there's a reading at all on your tank. I'm in Duluth so we're both pretty close to you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I see. Now that I look closely these two checkers are measuring different things. Would there really be any advantage in my situation to measure Phosphorus over phosphate?

No, they measure exactly the same thing in the same way (same chemistry). They just chose to report the units differently, like inches and centimeters.

IMO, its a poor marketing gimmick to make the ultra low unit look even lower. lol

 

[Jeff Miotke]

No, they measure exactly the same thing in the same way (same chemistry). They just chose to report the units differently, like inches and centimeters.

IMO, its a poor marketing gimmick to make the ultra low unit look even lower. lol

Excellent. This makes sense as the price of them is the same. I will stick to my checker then. Thanks!