All fish in QT rubbing on rocks

[franklinsreef]

Help please. I currently have in QT a baby regal tang, a yellow wrasse and a tomini tang. They have been in there for 2 and a half weeks. Last Wednesday I treated with fluke solve as regal was scratching a bit. Seemed to improve a little till yesterday, when he was constantly rubbing. I reluctantly did a FW dip. He made it through a bit upset and has eaten this morning, but he does look like he has some spots. And looks pale and awful! just spotted both the wrasse and tomini rubbing. I have cupramine available to treat, but I used seachem prime last night, I know I can’t use both products together!! I don’t know what to do! Can I get enough prime out with a water change to safely use cupramine? Also fluke solve says it remains in water for 3 weeks? Is that an issue?

 

[threebuoys]

Can you provide photos and videos of your fish to aid in diagnosis?

I see that fluke solve is a U.K. product. So, it is not something we see in the U.S. The instructions indicate its active ingredient is praziquantel. That is the medication of choice here also. However, 3 weeks is a long time to wait between doses based on the life cycle of saltwater flukes. Several of the "sticky" posts in this forum discusses the protocol we recommend. I suggest you read them. Basically, a target concentration is recommended along with heavy aeration. After 8 days, a partial water change followed by a second dose. In severe cases, a third dose is recommended after 8 more days. You'll need to compare the concentrations for fluke solve to those for the medications described in the posts in the forum to confirm you have an effective dose.

Sounds like you are concerned that ich may also be present. The photos and videos should help confirm that potential. If that becomes the case, we would generally not recommend treating with cupramine and prazi simultaneously. However, in extreme cases, we have recommended using Copper Power or Copper Safe and prazi at the same time since the copper formulation in those two is a bit easier to manage to appropriate concentrations.

 

[franklinsreef]

Thanks for your reply. Yes fluke solve is pretty much all that’s available in the UK. on the fluke solve website it says leave 3 weeks between doses. I’m not sure if that’s due to other ingredients? It’s a dewormer also?
Also difficult to get copper safe or copper power here, especially in a hurry. I have cupramine.
I’ve spoken to my local lfs this morning, who have advised several water changes to remove the prime, and to also drop the salinity level while doing this. I was at 1.026, I have dropped it today to 1.024 with a 20% WC. Plan is to do another 20% tomorrow to take it down to 1.022. I’ve read that prime is active only for 48hrs, so tomorrow I can start a treatment.
I don’t know what to treat for though? I’m trying to get a photo but the light on my qt tank is awful, and the fish are all hiding whenever I go anywhere near the tank!
Timescale of sudden worsening of the regal, and then the others just starting to flash at the same time makes me think more likely parasite than flukes?
Will keep trying to get a photo.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks for your reply. Yes fluke solve is pretty much all that’s available in the UK. on the fluke solve website it says leave 3 weeks between doses. I’m not sure if that’s due to other ingredients? It’s a dewormer also?
Also difficult to get copper safe or copper power here, especially in a hurry. I have cupramine.
I’ve spoken to my local lfs this morning, who have advised several water changes to remove the prime, and to also drop the salinity level while doing this. I was at 1.026, I have dropped it today to 1.024 with a 20% WC. Plan is to do another 20% tomorrow to take it down to 1.022. I’ve read that prime is active only for 48hrs, so tomorrow I can start a treatment.
I don’t know what to treat for though? I’m trying to get a photo but the light on my qt tank is awful, and the fish are all hiding whenever I go anywhere near the tank!
Timescale of sudden worsening of the regal, and then the others just starting to flash at the same time makes me think more likely parasite than flukes?
Will keep trying to get a photo.

It's really tough to say without pictures and video (even then it can be difficult). @threebuoys has you started in the right direction though.

Jay

 

[threebuoys]

Thanks for your reply. Yes fluke solve is pretty much all that’s available in the UK. on the fluke solve website it says leave 3 weeks between doses. I’m not sure if that’s due to other ingredients? It’s a dewormer also?
Also difficult to get copper safe or copper power here, especially in a hurry. I have cupramine.
I’ve spoken to my local lfs this morning, who have advised several water changes to remove the prime, and to also drop the salinity level while doing this. I was at 1.026, I have dropped it today to 1.024 with a 20% WC. Plan is to do another 20% tomorrow to take it down to 1.022. I’ve read that prime is active only for 48hrs, so tomorrow I can start a treatment.
I don’t know what to treat for though? I’m trying to get a photo but the light on my qt tank is awful, and the fish are all hiding whenever I go anywhere near the tank!
Timescale of sudden worsening of the regal, and then the others just starting to flash at the same time makes me think more likely parasite than flukes?
Will keep trying to get a photo.

Honestly, Prime will not be of much benefit, nor danger at this point. If you are convinced you have ich, then you should decide between hyposalinity or cupramine as your treatment path. You should not use both. 1.026 is fine, but hyposalinity requires you to drop salinity to 1.009. Since this is a QT, I assume no inverts or coral are in the tank.

 

[franklinsreef]

Yes QT has no inverts/ coral but I’m terrified to run copper if I’m honest. I feel hypo might be preferable. I’ve dropped salinity to 1.024 today from 1.026, plan to do another 0.002 drop tomorrow. Can I move any quicker than that on the salinity drop? Fish are all still eating ok. Should I give the fluke solve another try before dropping the salinity any further?
Since the water change earlier I haven’t seen any more scratching from the tomini and the wrasse, regal is still really itchy.
Can’t get any photos on phone that are close enough or Clear enough to be of use. I’m going to charge the camera so I can stand further away.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Thanks for your reply. Yes fluke solve is pretty much all that’s available in the UK. on the fluke solve website it says leave 3 weeks between doses. I’m not sure if that’s due to other ingredients? It’s a dewormer also?
Also difficult to get copper safe or copper power here, especially in a hurry. I have cupramine.
I’ve spoken to my local lfs this morning, who have advised several water changes to remove the prime, and to also drop the salinity level while doing this. I was at 1.026, I have dropped it today to 1.024 with a 20% WC. Plan is to do another 20% tomorrow to take it down to 1.022. I’ve read that prime is active only for 48hrs, so tomorrow I can start a treatment.
I don’t know what to treat for though? I’m trying to get a photo but the light on my qt tank is awful, and the fish are all hiding whenever I go anywhere near the tank!
Timescale of sudden worsening of the regal, and then the others just starting to flash at the same time makes me think more likely parasite than flukes?
Will keep trying to get a photo.

For your country, try Sera Tremazole for flukes as well as NT Labs Acriflavin which are both effective on flukes

 

[Dom]

Your thread title says: " All fish in QT rubbing on rocks".

Do you have rocks in your QT?

I understood that this is a bad idea as the rock absorbs medications and makes it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels.

 

[franklinsreef]

Your thread title says: " All fish in QT rubbing on rocks".

Do you have rocks in your QT?

I understood that this is a bad idea as the rock absorbs medications and makes it difficult to maintain therapeutic levels.

Hi,
Yes, I have rocks in there, I knew they would absorb copper, so had planned to remove if I needed to treat, I also have sand in a little tub for the wrasse. (which I can't remove) Would the rock also absorb other medications?

 

[threebuoys]

Help please. I currently have in QT a baby regal tang, a yellow wrasse and a tomini tang. They have been in there for 2 and a half weeks. Last Wednesday I treated with fluke solve as regal was scratching a bit. Seemed to improve a little till yesterday, when he was constantly rubbing. I reluctantly did a FW dip. He made it through a bit upset and has eaten this morning, but he does look like he has some spots. And looks pale and awful! just spotted both the wrasse and tomini rubbing. I have cupramine available to treat, but I used seachem prime last night, I know I can’t use both products together!! I don’t know what to do! Can I get enough prime out with a water change to safely use cupramine? Also fluke solve says it remains in water for 3 weeks? Is that an issue?

This link will give you all the info on Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity

Hyposalinity Jay Hemdal 2021 This term refers to a long-term bath treatment for marine fishes in which the salt content of the water is lowered and held below the point that certain parasites can survive. The salt level reached, and the time of the treatment are the two variables...

www.reef2reef.com

Our experience with prazi is that it is destroyed by bacteria rather quickly and with each subsequent dose, the prazi is eliminated even more quickly.. I do not know what the carrier is in fluke solve and whether that is the reason the instructions indicate 3 weeks or not.

 

[Dom]

Hi,
Yes, I have rocks in there, I knew they would absorb copper, so had planned to remove if I needed to treat, I also have sand in a little tub for the wrasse. (which I can't remove) Would the rock also absorb other medications?

@Jay Hemdal

 

[threebuoys]

@Jay Hemdal

Rock comprised of calcareous minerals does absorb copper. Maintaining the copper concentration at constant therapeutic levels is very difficult in those situations. Likewise for sand if it is calcareous instead of quartz or something similar.

 

[franklinsreef]

Ok just updating…
yesterday I had the camera running as long as I could to try to film him for a while, from as far away as I could leave the camera without it spooking him so much that he would just hide. Because I’ve had to zoom so much, the quality is awful, but this screenshot is all I have.

I see a few black dots on him. Not clear in the image, but you can see them, and in real life (IF I can get close enough) they are there! So I’m thinking now black ich? He also has quite a bumpy tummy? This has been present before and has improved. A quick search on here, and other posts made me think he was just overeating? He is eating and pooing ok. He’s still rubbing like mad, and really losing colour.
On the other fish… I haven’t seen the tomini rub at all! It was my husband that witnessed it yesterday, but he’s now ‘not sure’ !
The wrasse is occasionally flicking, but I wonder if he’s just really stressed at the upheaval of my netting the regal, then the water changes, drop in salinity etc…
I have dropped the salinity over 24 hrs from 1.026 to 1.021 I was reluctant to go to full hypo incase I could get a good photo and get a definitive diagnosis and needed to run copper.
So should I do another treatment of the fluke solve? I’m at 8 days now since last treatment, and have done 3 x 20% water changes since then.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Ok just updating…
yesterday I had the camera running as long as I could to try to film him for a while, from as far away as I could leave the camera without it spooking him so much that he would just hide. Because I’ve had to zoom so much, the quality is awful, but this screenshot is all I have.

I see a few black dots on him. Not clear in the image, but you can see them, and in real life (IF I can get close enough) they are there! So I’m thinking now black ich? He also has quite a bumpy tummy? This has been present before and has improved. A quick search on here, and other posts made me think he was just overeating? He is eating and pooing ok. He’s still rubbing like mad, and really losing colour.
On the other fish… I haven’t seen the tomini rub at all! It was my husband that witnessed it yesterday, but he’s now ‘not sure’ !
The wrasse is occasionally flicking, but I wonder if he’s just really stressed at the upheaval of my netting the regal, then the water changes, drop in salinity etc…
I have dropped the salinity over 24 hrs from 1.026 to 1.021 I was reluctant to go to full hypo incase I could get a good photo and get a definitive diagnosis and needed to run copper.
So should I do another treatment of the fluke solve? I’m at 8 days now since last treatment, and have done 3 x 20% water changes since then.

IMO - you could go to full hypo and that would take care of flukes, ich and turbellarians. It won't help if it is velvet, but I don' think that's it.

Jay

 

[franklinsreef]

Hi,
I missed this message until after I’d already decided to do another round of the fluke treatment. It hasn’t helped.
here’s a picture of him this morning.he looks awful! Think he has wounds from bashing on the rocks.

I think I’m going to have to copper treat. I have had carbon running in the tank now for 36 hrs and going to do a large water change to remove as much of the existing medication as I can.I know I’m going to have to remove the rocks, and am going to have to give the wrasse a smaller tub of sand. Im worried that his sores might be an issue with the copper though?

Edit just snapped this one of him grabbing food at the surface

Definitely spots!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Hi,
I missed this message until after I’d already decided to do another round of the fluke treatment. It hasn’t helped.
here’s a picture of him this morning.he looks awful! Think he has wounds from bashing on the rocks.

I think I’m going to have to copper treat. I have had carbon running in the tank now for 36 hrs and going to do a large water change to remove as much of the existing medication as I can.I know I’m going to have to remove the rocks, and am going to have to give the wrasse a smaller tub of sand. Im worried that his sores might be an issue with the copper though?

Edit just snapped this one of him grabbing food at the surface

Definitely spots!

Copper doesn’t work well on flukes, but in cases where the diagnosis is 100% clear, it does work if it is protozoans.
The hyposalinity I recommended will work against flukes and ich.

Jay

 

[franklinsreef]

Copper doesn’t work well on flukes, but in cases where the diagnosis is 100% clear, it does work if it is protozoans.
The hyposalinity I recommended will work against flukes and ich.

Jay

Thanks, my biggest worry is velvet, but I’m thinking as it’s been a week and a half of symptoms now I’d know!? Im going to go for hypo and hope for the best.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thanks, my biggest worry is velvet, but I’m thinking as it’s been a week and a half of symptoms now I’d know!? Im going to go for hypo and hope for the best.

Yes - with velvet, you would be seeing super fast breathing, not eating and then deaths would start within a few days.

Jay

 

[franklinsreef]

Update:
Am now at a salinity of 1.012. I slowed down a bit on the drop as was worried about the accuracy of my refractometer. Have since calibrated with 35ppt fluid, and checked on multiple devices.
regal tang ‘seems’ a little better today, less noticeable marks and bumps on body. He’s eating ok.
Wrasse seems fine, other than the occasional flick. Eating ok.
Tomini tang is now my big worry, today he’s hidden all day and he has cloudy eyes. Seems almost like a film over them that’s peeling off?
he was the only one doing ok till today!! Has been out for food, but reluctantly.
Feel broken… I just want to help them.

Yes - with velvet, you would be seeing super fast breathing, not eating and then deaths would start within a few days.

Jay

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Update:
Am now at a salinity of 1.012. I slowed down a bit on the drop as was worried about the accuracy of my refractometer. Have since calibrated with 35ppt fluid, and checked on multiple devices.
regal tang ‘seems’ a little better today, less noticeable marks and bumps on body. He’s eating ok.
Wrasse seems fine, other than the occasional flick. Eating ok.
Tomini tang is now my big worry, today he’s hidden all day and he has cloudy eyes. Seems almost like a film over them that’s peeling off?
he was the only one doing ok till today!! Has been out for food, but reluctantly.
Feel broken… I just want to help them.

Not sure what to tell you, but 1.012 is the point where flukes begin to drop off. If you are JUST there, it may take a couple of days to see an improvement (if it is flukes). There is also an issue with severe flukes, that when you treat for them, the flukes drop off, but leave open sores on the fish's skin and gills. This can cause anemia. In severe cases, the fish can die from that. There is also a slight risk of secondary bacterial infection from where the flukes had attached to the fish, but it is too soon to see that.

Jay