Am I crazy for thinking MH + t5 ?

[Centerline]

You hit it! When comparing or evaluating a lighting system it is far more important to look at the wavelength of the light it produces first and foremost. If you look to the quality of that spectrum is too ensure that the light it produces is of quality for the corals health. Secondary is to look at amount of photons produced and this can be in PAR, most common in the hobby, or lumens, less useful.

So let's look that the most popular and/or most know bulbs for producing healthy corals.

MH Radium, produces a very broad spectrum however most is in the 380nm-460nm.

ATI Blue Plus, another bulb that had a general broad spectrum however most light is also in the sweet spot of 400nm-460nm.

Now, let's look to the Kessil AP700 as a known and quality light. It also is capable of a broad spectrum with majority of light produced in the 380-460nm wavelength. You can also see that no matter then spectrum you choose, with Kessil Logic, it will still produce the majority of correct light for coral health. Also at the bluest settings the spectrum is really hitting that 380-460nm well.

So as you can see what all these have in common is that key spectrum 380-460nm range of light for coral health.


Now let's compare PAR, that's the easy bit. With any number of T5 bulbs you can produce as much PAR as needed/wanted.
The Radium MH is well know to produce high PAR number with either the 250 or 400 watt light as long as you choose the wattage needed for the depth and size of the tank.
I am here to say that the Kessil AP700 has no problem producing PAR numbers of 4-500 in the middle level of 12" depth and minimum of ~150-300 PAR for a 36"x24" area and 24" depth depending on mounting height and even more of you use more fixtures. For me I also use two T5 Blue Plus and I don't have a place in my tank I do not get 300+ PAR.

So each light can produce the amount of photos we generally see are required for SPS and even acros.

I see no real value in even determining the "Best". They all are equally capable and the bottom line is personnel choice.

Hey Man, thanks for taking time for this post. Very interesting.

 

[A. grandis]

It can take quite some time for proteins that excite under 400nm to redevelop if they were not under lights that had this spectrum already. Most LEDs do not - even though they say UV, most use violet in the 410-420 range, and not true UV (marketing lie/trick). You need a MH or florescent bulb to get a lot of of real UV unless a panel has sub-400 diodes in enough places to make a difference and not just one or two that are spread out. This is one of the ways that T5s add more color when added to panels.

The "pop" might take some time to redevelop - be patient if this range is new to your tank.

Remember that light not only shows off coral, but is also develops proteins that use high energy light and spit back out lower energy (these will usually come back if absent under a certain kind of light), and lastly develops pigments that act as sunscreen to reflect certain kinds of light. It will take a full range from 350 to 720nm to get all of this out of a diverse tank of inhabitants.

This is really useful info and I remember reading about it back in the 90's or early 2000s...
I have to look for those articles again and search! It's very interesting to see all that and understand why the MHs and T5s offer so many benefits to the cnidarians we keep!!
Thanks very much for your post!!! Please feel free to enrich this thread even more..
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

You hit it! When comparing or evaluating a lighting system it is far more important to look at the wavelength of the light it produces first and foremost. If you look to the quality of that spectrum is too ensure that the light it produces is of quality for the corals health. Secondary is to look at amount of photons produced and this can be in PAR, most common in the hobby, or lumens, less useful.

So let's look that the most popular and/or most know bulbs for producing healthy corals.

MH Radium, produces a very broad spectrum however most is in the 380nm-460nm.

ATI Blue Plus, another bulb that had a general broad spectrum however most light is also in the sweet spot of 400nm-460nm.

Now, let's look to the Kessil AP700 as a known and quality light. It also is capable of a broad spectrum with majority of light produced in the 380-460nm wavelength. You can also see that no matter then spectrum you choose, with Kessil Logic, it will still produce the majority of correct light for coral health. Also at the bluest settings the spectrum is really hitting that 380-460nm well.

So as you can see what all these have in common is that key spectrum 380-460nm range of light for coral health.


Now let's compare PAR, that's the easy bit. With any number of T5 bulbs you can produce as much PAR as needed/wanted.
The Radium MH is well know to produce high PAR number with either the 250 or 400 watt light as long as you choose the wattage needed for the depth and size of the tank.
I am here to say that the Kessil AP700 has no problem producing PAR numbers of 4-500 in the middle level of 12" depth and minimum of ~150-300 PAR for a 36"x24" area and 24" depth depending on mounting height and even more of you use more fixtures. For me I also use two T5 Blue Plus and I don't have a place in my tank I do not get 300+ PAR.

So each light can produce the amount of photos we generally see are required for SPS and even acros.

I see no real value in even determining the "Best". They all are equally capable and the bottom line is personnel choice.

Thanks for taking the time to post.
The info is very helpful for the people who enjoy the Kessils and for the comparison of Boom's corals.
I had looked at that before and saw the charts.
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

When I think of "pop" I think of the corals themselves fluorescing as well, not the overall look or color temp of the tank. I can definitely notice a difference in pop with the new bulbs when I run my dusk/dawns (one TA and one B+). I don't really notice much difference when all eight bulbs are on even with a second TA in the mix now. After leaving the tank for a day, letting my eyes "reset" and looking at it again yesterday, it is definitely more blue than before but it's a very minor change. I actually prefer the slightly lower brightness as well. In hindsight I probably should have just gone with a six bulb unit (Sunpower) but running an eight with two TA's will work too. I may try running two TA's as my dusk/dawns and that will probably pop more but I imagine my fish wouldn't look very good either.

I agree with you and think we are in the same page.
My hope is that everyone else would see those lights the same way?!? LOL!
Then we could bring that here. Otherwise they will think we are crazy. LOL!
I'm gonna put 2 ATI True Actinic bulbs only in December..
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

Here is a link where he walks around and gives the rundown on his systems and lighting. Great video.

It's funny as I'm trying to make up my mind about running my Specra ( 2 250 radiums and 4 true actinic T5s plus 2 XHO leds) or a new 8 bulb ATI unit over my 525. I really want to run the Spectra but the Spectra is so bright, the tank is very high and the room is so small that I'm afraid Ill blind myself when sitting there working and looking at the tank. I may move the Spectra to my office as I have a 450 with 3 Ration G4 pros over it. Those may go over a 300 I'm having built for our new shop that have much more office space. That video really is making me consider the ATI for my 525 reefer at home.

I found that video last night. Thanks for posting here.
Jason is a lucky boy collecting his own corals!!!
Wow! You have lots of systems as well...;Wideyed
Grandis.

 

[Reef4Rose]

My last piece of the main set up is lighting. Great thread and lots of opinions.

The only brands I can find for T5 metal halide combo are Giesmann, Hamilton Technology for Cebu Sun and Odyssea which seems to be an EBay thing. Giesmann loses me due to no ballast and bulbs included on a 1500 fixture. Cebu Sun gives you both and 4 to 500 less on the 72”. Any comments on brand, bulb combination and wattage for halides would be appreciated. I am looking at 1 72” or 2 36”. My tank is 250 gal 79x32x24. I am thinking 2 36” so I can cover the 79 a little better. Plus with Cebu Sun I’d get 4 halides with the 2 fixtures. The 72” is 3 halides. More is better? I am not sure what corals yet but I will have an aquascape that has ledges for shaded areas if less light is needed for some varieties.

 

[BoomCorals]

My last piece of the main set up is lighting. Great thread and lots of opinions.

The only brands I can find for T5 metal halide combo are Giesmann, Hamilton Technology for Cebu Sun and Odyssea which seems to be an EBay thing. Giesmann loses me due to no ballast and bulbs included on a 1500 fixture. Cebu Sun gives you both and 4 to 500 less on the 72”. Any comments on brand, bulb combination and wattage for halides would be appreciated. I am looking at 1 72” or 2 36”. My tank is 250 gal 79x32x24. I am thinking 2 36” so I can cover the 79 a little better. Plus with Cebu Sun I’d get 4 halides with the 2 fixtures. The 72” is 3 halides. More is better? I am not sure what corals yet but I will have an aquascape that has ledges for shaded areas if less light is needed for some varieties.

Having had both at least in hand and the hamilton working for a couple days before I replaced it with the giesemann, I would go with the giesemann hands down. The cons of the hamilton are:

-T5s have no reflector at all
-has almost twice as many power cords to plug in and manage
-requires active cooling and the fans are pretty loud
-the halide reflectors on the giesemann look like a superior design to me and do a better job of reflecting more light without losing spread
-the bulbs that come with the hamilton suck anyways from what i saw
-giesemann comes with a hanging kit which may or may not matter to you

 

[Reef4Rose]

Having had both at least in hand and the hamilton working for a couple days before I replaced it with the giesemann

72 to cover 79” tank?

 

[BoomCorals]

72 to cover 79” tank?

No but a 48" Cebu sun and a 48" giesemann over a 48" frag tank

 

[Reef4Rose]

Sorry wasn’t clear. I have 79” of tank. I would think the 72” light will be fine figuring a 3” buffer zone. Thanks for your evaluation.

 

[aabjones888]

It's person preference on what unit to use between the Hamilton and giesemann. I've have two different Hamilton fixtures and loved both of them.
I've never had a chance to get a giesemann fixture but they definitely look better if it matters.
The Hamilton is a black box looking type fixture, so if looks are a must I'd prolly go with the giesemann.
The Hamilton bulbs are good bulbs and are proven, I'd use the 20k if I was to use one of there's. I think I can upgrade your bulbs when buying, to radiums.
Inmiggt be wrong but I thought my t-5s and the halides had one big reflector behind all the bulbs.

 

[aabjones888]

No matter what get electronic ballasts.

 

[jda]

I would go with the 72" Hamilton and upgrade to the M80 ballasts and the Radium 20Ks. Hamiltons MH bulbs are pretty good, but they are not as good as Radium 20K, IMO. The T5s on this unit are for supplementation and not to really grow anything - you probably don't even need them. Giesmann is nice too if you can afford it.

4 MH bulbs would be fine, but probably not necessary.

Odyssea is junk. Junk bulbs, junk ballasts even if you get new bulbs. You cannot afford to go cheap with Odyssea. Although I don't think that this has happened in a while with the newer units, they used to catch on fire.

 

[10Seconds]

Odyssea is junk. Junk bulbs, junk ballasts even if you get new bulbs. You cannot afford to go cheap with Odyssea. Although I don't think that this has happened in a while with the newer units, they used to catch on fire.

Partially true. I am running an Odyssea MH/t5 combo. I am pretty happy with it, though its early. The new units build quality is solid. And Its very easy to put a Luxcore or Icecap ballast on it and I am using a Pheonix 15k MH bulb with ATI t5s. When outfitted properly, I dont have a complaint. And even with those upgrades, its still the cheapest option out there. I bought this as an experiment to try on my 60 gallon to see if I liked MH before investing in it on my 220. And I do. I am looking to switch my 220 over now also. (though that one may get Giesemanns as I do want to try the Radium bulbs everyone raves about).

 

[A. grandis]

Sanjay has stated that he went with Radions to try and save money. But the cost of heating the tank in the winter made it a wash as far as cost savings. One should not think of savings as there is always a downside to a different path.

Hey, reefwiser!! I just found the video by accident!!
Yes, Dr. Sanjay made a big mistake thinking that he would save some electricity...
He actually spent lots of unnecessary money buying all those 10 fancy black boxes and still have to use heaters...
All the best to you, Dr. Sanjay. Good luck!

Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

Having had both at least in hand and the hamilton working for a couple days before I replaced it with the giesemann, I would go with the giesemann hands down. The cons of the hamilton are:

-T5s have no reflector at all
-has almost twice as many power cords to plug in and manage
-requires active cooling and the fans are pretty loud
-the halide reflectors on the giesemann look like a superior design to me and do a better job of reflecting more light without losing spread
-the bulbs that come with the hamilton suck anyways from what i saw
-giesemann comes with a hanging kit which may or may not matter to you

That's very good info!
Thanks!
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

I would go with the 72" Hamilton and upgrade to the M80 ballasts and the Radium 20Ks. Hamiltons MH bulbs are pretty good, but they are not as good as Radium 20K, IMO. The T5s on this unit are for supplementation and not to really grow anything - you probably don't even need them. Giesmann is nice too if you can afford it.

4 MH bulbs would be fine, but probably not necessary.

Odyssea is junk. Junk bulbs, junk ballasts even if you get new bulbs. You cannot afford to go cheap with Odyssea. Although I don't think that this has happened in a while with the newer units, they used to catch on fire.

I just would like to bring up the important possibility of enrichment of spectrum with the T5s as supplements.
A very good example is if we add True Actinic and/or Blue Plus bulbs. There is actually an addition of spectrum that makes difference. I'm actually trying the True Actinics out and looking for more info after I've seen small differences in pigmentation. So it does make a difference in that route.
With the T5s we can make the tank to look more towards what we need/like, besides the supplementation of spectrum/PAR per say.
We can also use the T5s for more hours or turn them on before and after the halides to spread the photoperiod, creating dusk that some of us wish. Using halides less hours would make the bulb to last longer and the T5s would supply the light needed to complete the photoperiod.
Just my $0.02.
Grandis.

 

[teller]

Hey, reefwiser!! I just found the video by accident!!
Yes, Dr. Sanjay made a big mistake thinking that he would save some electricity...
He actually spent lots of unnecessary money buying all those 10 fancy black boxes and still have to use heaters...
All the best to you, Dr. Sanjay. Good luck!

Grandis.

It is funny you forget to mention the part of the crash in 2014 due to chiller failure.

https://reefs.com/magazine/anatomy-of-a-disaster-part-ii-145/

From here Dr Sanjay says:
"
Eliminating the chiller from the system would obviously prevent this from ever happening again. I never want a failed chiller to destroy my system again. The prime reason for including a chiller was to combat the heat added to the system by the 3 400W Metal Halides. The tank is located in the basement and is generally cooler than the house, however the metal halides would still raise the tank temperatures to 85 (F) in the summer. "
His system was in a 5 day cycle of 86-90 (F).

 

[A. grandis]

Partially true. I am running an Odyssea MH/t5 combo. I am pretty happy with it, though its early. The new units build quality is solid. And Its very easy to put a Luxcore or Icecap ballast on it and I am using a Pheonix 15k MH bulb with ATI t5s. When outfitted properly, I dont have a complaint. And even with those upgrades, its still the cheapest option out there. I bought this as an experiment to try on my 60 gallon to see if I liked MH before investing in it on my 220. And I do. I am looking to switch my 220 over now also. (though that one may get Giesemanns as I do want to try the Radium bulbs everyone raves about).

I believe that the t5 ballasts are very important. If the quality of the ballasts in the Odyssea are in fact junk then the whole system is compromised. The parts that really matter for a light fixture are the ballasts, reflectors and bulbs. So in that sense I have to agree with jda.
Thanks for your report anyways!
Grandis.

 

[A. grandis]

It is funny you forget to mention the part of the crash in 2014 due to chiller failure.

https://reefs.com/magazine/anatomy-of-a-disaster-part-ii-145/

From here Dr Sanjay says:
"
Eliminating the chiller from the system would obviously prevent this from ever happening again. I never want a failed chiller to destroy my system again. The prime reason for including a chiller was to combat the heat added to the system by the 3 400W Metal Halides. The tank is located in the basement and is generally cooler than the house, however the metal halides would still raise the tank temperatures to 85 (F) in the summer. "
His system was in a 5 day cycle of 86-90 (F).

Well, the problem with the chiller was mostly because the Apex controller failed to send him an email to alert about the problem, he said.
He also said he was very happy to get the LEDs over the tank because he was saving money without the chiller and the pump that was used for the chiller.
Our point is actually to show that if he has to use so many heaters now, there is actually no savings.
That's what we are talking about...
There is nothing funny and we actually knew about all that.
Thanks for posting the article though!!
Grandis.