Amguard? For Amonia?

[Steph1]

Hi, a few days ago I had an anenome walk into my wavemaker. I removed the anenome ASAP or as much as I could find anyway. I did a bit of a water change. I have given the tank the recommended amout of Anguard my amonia is now abou 0.1 after two doses. it was about 0.25 3 days ago. How is the bound up amonia removed, is it by the skimmer? as hapens to phosphates when bound up by lanthium chloride?

 

[ariellemermaid]

It binds ammonia but does not remove it, in fact it un-binds in 48-72 hours. It just buys your bio filter (bacteria) time to process the ammonia before killing everything in the tank. Keep monitoring your ammonia level and stop using once you’re back to zero.

 

[brandon429]

All ammonia events resolve in five minutes in reefing when the carcass is removed, no dosing was ever needed. your test kits are misreading as they commonly do for the color tube comparison kits.

it is flatly impossible in reefing to have a sustained ammonia non control event

those events either kill the system or they harmlessly self resolve in five minutes
Free ammonia never, ever hovers in the tenths in any reef even though 1,000,000 folks might report that using Red Sea or api



we know this from the seneye threads. If all we had were color tube tests nobody would agree this could be the case. They simply give wrong numbers most of the time when reporting low level ammonia. No reef tank ever needs anti ammonia dosing help, they all manage free ammonia just fine and compounds from the dead anemone other than ammonia can be the issue.

seneye threads show us all ammonia events resolve in five minutes max once the source is removed. Not saying a dead rotting anem can’t degrade into problematic ammonia in a reef it can, but the numbers you’ve reported are too low to require offset action, the systems surface area has already processed free ammonia long before your test kits will agree. Once TAN conversion is applied to your readings they’ll be in the safe zone without any offsets added. We also know theres no ammonia issue currently because only a test reading causes the concern and not cloudy water, loss of fish etc. free ammonia is a tank killer when natural filters are overcome.

 

[brandon429]

Post a full tank pic for the final proofing

when lights come on several details in the pic will reveal nh3 status without actually testing for it.

 

[Steph1]

Thanks Brandon, but that is not possible ATM. I am out when lights come on. I 2 days I can though. Curious though, what are those details?

 

[Steph1]

Thank you for getting back. Yes that I what I came to as well. Have done a 50% water change after 50 hrs. Another one in 48 hrs. Kind of over it though;)

 

[brandon429]

No need for more changes it’s ok for sure, we are another day beyond reports of losses its just a test error thankfully :) I collect these posts in false ammonia warning threads, if you’ll still post a pic I’ll list em now:

clear water. Any time ammonia controls are overcome and *sustained* we get cloudy crash water not that ammonia is cloudy itself as Randy pointed out, but because it takes so much ammonia to overcome a bio system and hold that way the water will be so full of extra bacteria capitalizing on the mess they won’t stay attached, theyll multiply and cloud up. Clear water after two or three suspect days is #1.

smell. Nh3 smells horrible and google says humans can smell it in water down to hundredths ppm. If your tank doesn’t smell like a litter box freshly used, ammonia is controlled.

fish position. Fish burned by ammonia don’t distribute evenly in pics they hover near death at the top, gills burned, wanting 02

-no continued input source, you’ve removed what you can. Cycled reefs easily command 5 ppm of ammonia per day and nothing is present to be driving yours up past that, with no smell and clean water. Even though you had an initial spike it self resolves in five minutes per seneye threads where they dump true ammonia in running reefs and track how long it takes to uptake.


-your test readings match ten thousand stalled ammonia threads online it’s not pegged green 8 ppm or anything. And if it was.... :) still a misread w no smell or cloud or loss.


the picture will show common surface area ratios in reefing which always provide filtration when current moves water past them, or you couldn’t have been keeping an anemone that long to get into the pump.


any open corals at all. Nh3 is a true irritant, absolutely nothing in the tank behaves normally when it’s above hundredths ppm.


any snails or small life forms alive, especially cleaner shrimp if applicable, those die immediately when ammonia isn’t controlled and they even benchmark whether or not you had an initial spike. in seneye threads we've tracked out whole fish left to degrade in the tank, big tangs. ammonia stayed in the thousandths, these reefs can handle ammonia inputs above norm at any time exactly like a bio shock absorber.

 

[brandon429]

Curious on those pics n outcomes from above

 

[brandon429]

hey can we get pics

that was a heckuva piece of mind free troubleshooting event above

 

[Garf]

It’s not just about ammonia though, is it? What about nem juice, stinging cells, toxins and stuff? Water changes have never been a bad idea in that situation as far as I can tell. Looks like the OP has sorted things just nicely.

 

[brandon429]

I would have done a full water change agreed, for the other contams. agreed we only hear back when things go south :) glad all is well.

 

[brandon429]

Even though no pic follow through after assist, we still linked this in our false ammonia thread. The patterns that false reading tanks show are amazingly predictable. this one was good to show others how predictable the issue is in reefing. All reefs, 100% of them, self- control ammonia it’s the #1 molecule they’re ready to process. Not any display tanks fail to handle ammonia after cycling


Fourth request pics means no go for future troubleshoots but I bet ammonia is not a future concern again, at least that param was handled and it won’t be an issue in the future.

 

[ariellemermaid]

Even though no pic follow through after assist, we still linked this in our false ammonia thread. The patterns that false reading tanks show is amazingly predictable. this one was good to show others how predictable the issue is in reefing. All reefs, 100% of them, self- control ammonia it’s the #1 molecule they’re ready to process. No pics for fair trade assist - not cool but common for us, still a strong example.

I have to say..... One thing I’ve learned as a scientist is there is absolutely nothing that can be said to be true 100% of the time. Especially not when we’re talking about organic chemistry in a dynamic, living system. Also, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You’re quick to claim some kind of victory on your theory, however, this thread proves absolutely nothing.

Also, your tone here is not conducive to the helpful, friendly environment reef2reef should be. If she/he doesn’t want to provide you with a picture of their tank to try and “prove” your theory that is perfectly cool. Next, their ammonia spike was at least 3 days ago, providing a picture now would neither prove nor disprove your theory. Next, a picture of a tank cannot prove your theory in the first place. Any more than a picture of a person can definitely, to the exclusion of all other possibilities, make a definitive medical diagnosis. Next, Seneye readings are notoriously unreliable which seems to form the entire basis of your theory; to prove something you need a gold standard test, and Seneye is definitely not that. Finally, you’ve been badgering this poor OP like a teenage boy trying to get pics out of a high school crush, calm down.

 

[brandon429]

It was so we can add to completed and closed out links here below, and your rush for a crush analogy is plain wierd


I think your ammonia statements show that in your science, none was done on reef tank ammonia studies.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sustained-ammonia-spikes-are-misreads.802470/#post-8674126
She didn’t report the other mechanisms I listed in the title, or following discourse.

you can see the request for pics is to complete these analyses over and over for patterning.

show me your opposing science for ammonia non control, to see proof you have some content-specific offers.

the request was for pics and that was the balance for the help, this time I wanted pics it wasn’t a free job.

not a problem if we aren’t getting any but it was to tie in the final help for others in a matter that plagues reefing.


after giving her issue earnest help and analysis that was a fair request for follow up v silence. As you can see in our work collected, reef tanks control their ammonia without variation. Usually getting the pics isn’t a big deal to the poster or to the readers. We had no problems there at all.

you provided a rather specific challenge, surely you’ll give us something we can read...a link...someone else’s writing on the matter, accepting anything.

 

[brandon429]

@ariellemermaid post your links for science you do on ammonia control in reefs.

if we get nothing specific to the issue beyond your opening challenge and introduction, that’s ok, but if you’ve studied free ammonia patterns for reefs it really interests me to see what you’re finding and you sound sure on the matter.

its amazing to me that all cycling charts show the same ammonia trending and none vary, but above you said ammonia control varies based on your organic chem experience. Cant wait for the read to be posted.


Steph’s reef and future reefing regarding free ammonia was assisted by the troubleshooting, left without new science updates she would have been directed to make all kinds of purchases and offset hesitation which we show above to cause more loss. fixing reefs can be a thankless job but getting completed data we can use for patterning usually makes it worth it. The link above shows the helpful exchanges folks provide when we troubleshoot for them since getting to the truth was the important part.

 

[ariellemermaid]

It was so we can add to completed and closed out links here below, and your rush for a crush analogy is plain wierd


I think your ammonia statements show that in your science, none was done on reef tank ammonia studies.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/sustained-ammonia-spikes-are-misreads.802470/#post-8674126
She didn’t report the other mechanisms I listed in the title, or following discourse.

you can see the request for pics is to complete these analyses over and over for patterning.

show me your opposing science for ammonia non control, to see proof you have some content-specific offers.

the request was for pics and that was the balance for the help, this time I wanted pics it wasn’t a free job.

not a problem if we aren’t getting any but it was to tie in the final help for others in a matter that plagues reefing.


after giving her issue earnest help and analysis that was a fair request for follow up v silence. As you can see in our work collected, reef tanks control their ammonia without variation. Usually getting the pics isn’t a big deal to the poster or to the readers. We had no problems there at all.

you provided a rather specific challenge, surely you’ll give us something we can read...a link...someone else’s writing on the matter, accepting anything.

Collecting anecdotes from Internet forum threads is neither science, nor research. That is conducted in a lab with completely controlled conditions and gold standard, methodical scientific grade testing. Forums and Seneye do not qualify. Your arrogance in your theories and unscientific conclusions, badgering the OP, and finally topping it off by claiming some kind of victory because you didn’t get what you wanted is not appropriate etiquette here. I’ll say it again, this thread proves absolutely nothing despite your claims.

My point, however, is that if the OP does not want to participate in what you call “research” that should be respected. Instead, you disparage them for not cooperating with you. This is their thread, not yours, they do not owe you anything. I feel offended on their behalf. To be honest the tone, arrogance, and content of your posts started annoying me days ago but with your last post I could stay silent no longer.

I have said all I have to say about this.

 

[brandon429]

you use hyperbole to make up for links
nobody was disparaged.



My link is bad, useless, but analysts and hypercritics don’t make the replacement / sounds like a safe critique. It’s been this way for decades online.



we collected *seneye* readings there but your quick scan missed em



your tone and opening assertion was offensive but I didn’t melt down about it or build it up into a huge concern, was more in it for the ammonia findings you’ve made.

I’m sure you’re withholding your prior ammonia work to make a point, point taken.


I did expect pics to balance the help out, it wasn’t a free job this time, but no big deal twenty other stuck ammonia posts are coming and most folks simply want to get to the truth-we will get clean completed outcome pics in those posts as most folks want the full picture closure.