Ammonium dosing is a bit overrated

[areefer01]

1) Ocean studies don’t really apply to reef tanks.

True. Yet they are often referenced or asked for across social media threads.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

I suppose context matters

While pee is mostly water by weight -- the bulk of the nitrogen contained therein is urea. So I get what he was trying to say even if it was wrong.

Urea is in a lot of products. It's not the same thing as urine. It's a form of nitrogen that sounds like urine...

Just trying to correct for others that might read this thread.

 

[UncommonSense]

I’ve been casually following this thread along through my workday…

last I had a chance to check; we were discussing coral growth…

Now we’re into the finer nuances of pee? Color me confused!

(Yes, I know they are related in this context; just teasing!)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Urea is in a lot of products. It's not the same thing as urine. It's a form of nitrogen that sounds like urine...

Just trying to correct for others that might read this thread.

Not sure what you are claiming, but urea is the primary form of nitrogen in human urine useless you are very sick.

My only concern with urea dosing is tracking amounts in the tank.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Urea is in a lot of products. It's not the same thing as urine. It's a form of nitrogen that sounds like urine...

Just trying to correct for others that might read this thread.

I fully understand that

Not to head off on a tangent, but they sound the same for a good reason. The word urea only exists because of urine. The pee came first. In Latin, "it burns" -- the word is urina. Later, someone figured out what in the pee actually “burned” and isolated it. That compound was then given a similar name: urea, from the same Latin root.


FWIW—I’ve had this conversation countless times. In a prior life, I pumped a few million pounds of urea (and polyol) based polymers (polyurea and polyurethane) in the mining industry.

Anytime we pumped polyurea, some nitwit would say "I am not touching this stuff -- it's made with pee!" To which I would explain that it wasn't but the mushrooms in his lunchbox were grown in a mixture of manure, straw and urea -- and are of course fungus -- so it would be a good idea to get back to work and not worry if "pee" is in the polyurea.

 

[Troylee]

Not sure what you are claiming, but urea is the primary form of nitrogen in human urine useless you are very sick.

My only concern with urea dosing is tracking amounts in the tank.

5G to 25g of ammonia bicarbonate works really well! @Salem-Novel Aquatics wrote an article about it.

 

[Macdaddynick1]

I think I was very transparent about my limitations by readily admitting I did not read any studies.

I readily acknowledged corals choose, prefer, and have an easier time assimilating ammonia. I also stated I liked ammonium dosing and would use it once nitrate was detectable.

I acknowledged the real limitations of ammonia dosing based on my experience helping posts and reading threads. It is a fact that it takes longer to raise nitrate with ammonium vs dosing straight nitrate.

I was open to seeing research studies and having a good discussion.


All in all, I think I did a fine job at clearly stating my thesis. I was aware prior to making this thread that it might get a little controversial and may ruffle some feathers.

What is your reasoning behind dosing ammonia once nitrates are detectable instead of continuing supplementing with nitrates ?

 

[Jasonak]

Easier more readily absorbed by coral than nitrate. I think of it like a nut with the shell of vs having to crack it open.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

5G to 25g of ammonia bicarbonate works really well! @Salem-Novel Aquatics wrote an article about it.

I don’t doubt it can be useful, although I’ve not seen an experiment that compared it to ammonia.

 

[Miami Reef]

What is your reasoning behind dosing ammonia once nitrates are detectable instead of continuing supplementing with nitrates ?

Ammonium bicarbonate is alkalinity-neutral; every 50 ppm of direct NO₃ added increases alkalinity by 2.3 dKH. Additionally, once the immediate concern of nitrogen limitations have been alleviated, you can take your time fine tuning the ammonium dose required for your demand.

You can certainly use ammonium and completely bypass nitrate dosing, but you can’t be scared of dosing higher to reach a nitrogen surplus.

My immediate goal is to create an ammonium dosing chart and guideline. I think it can be helpful instead of leaving people astray to figure out how many ppm ammonium to dose and in how many increments to increase it by based on nitrate testing.

I have a lot of experience with it and have helped many people find their dose.

 

[rishma]

My only argument is that nature reefs, imo, have an over abundant amount of planktonic/particulate foods and most gets swept into the abyss. I think it is possible to provide an optimal amount of particle foods. My proof is success with a sun coral.

Beautiful coral! I love sun corals. I have not kept one in decades.

I believe your argument contains logical fallacies. Your position is that the ocean contains just the right amount of inorganic nutrients and that is what we should do in our tanks. At the same time it contains an over abundance of planktonic/particulate foods and we should not try to recreate that in our systems. So emulating natural conditions is the right answer in our tanks sometimes but not always.

I actually agree that it may be “possible to provide an optimal amount of particle foods”. While possible, I don’t know how one would define optimal or measure it. I don’t think ocean level inorganic nutrients combined with an undefined optimal levels of particulate foods is the approach most likely to result in success for the greatest number of hobbyists.

It can be successful, no doubt. I trust it’s successful for you. It’s just not the percentage play. I don’t think the hobby would be well served if that trend became popular.

 

[EliMelly]

The best way to cycle a tank is by peeing in it!

I don’t understand, can you post pictures for explanation.

 

[Salem-Novel Aquatics]

I don’t doubt it can be useful, although I’ve not seen an experiment that compared it to ammonia.

Lacking formal data right now - a few people have reached out to me and have told me they have measured an increased uptake in Nickel after switching to the mixture. Nickel is the primary cofactor for urease so that seems to "confirm" uptake in said systems. Uptake by what is the question.

I also have a friend who dosed it in a system with Tridacna. He observed negative effects on his clams. I will need to conduct a literature review to understand why this may be. I am sure that urea may be useful for some species and not useful for others.

I hope to organize a community experiment comparing different nitrogen sources eventually. Much to learn.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I hope to organize a community experiment comparing different nitrogen sources eventually. Much to learn.

That would be great! Thanks for the info.

 

[CHSUB]

Beautiful coral! I love sun corals. I have not kept one in decades.

I believe your argument contains logical fallacies. Your position is that the ocean contains just the right amount of inorganic nutrients and that is what we should do in our tanks. At the same time it contains an over abundance of planktonic/particulate foods and we should not try to recreate that in our systems. So emulating natural conditions is the right answer in our tanks sometimes but not always.

I actually agree that it may be “possible to provide an optimal amount of particle foods”. While possible, I don’t know how one would define optimal or measure it. I don’t think ocean level inorganic nutrients combined with an undefined optimal levels of particulate foods is the approach most likely to result in success for the greatest number of hobbyists.

It can be successful, no doubt. I trust it’s successful for you. It’s just not the percentage play. I don’t think the hobby would be well served if that trend became popular.

Imo I’m not doing anything special. I have in the past, trying to keep heavily stocked aquariums with large fish populations while having very low nutrients, running giant 2 pump skimmers, sulfur or methanol denitrators, large fugs, auto WC, and carbon dosing. However, my current aquarium has a moderate fish population with a stock skimmer, GAC, and a filter sock; very pedestrian and common. I try to keep all my parameters roughly within 10 to 25 percent of ocean reef levels including pH, Alk, calcium, magnesium, po4, etc. I’m confident most are doing very similar. The only difference I’m seeing is no3? I try to keep no3 within a moderate percentage higher than ocean reef levels. Recently no3 tested at .12 ppm which is over 1000% higher than ocean levels, but I didn’t panic…haha!

Some recommendations today for no3 is somewhere between 50,000 and 500,000 percent higher than ocean reefs. If we did that for Alk some would be running Alk between 3500 and 35,000 dKH.

I think what I’m doing is the easiest way…WC, vigorous and consistent maintenance, high input high output with the hobbyist providing a bulk of the output.

 

[Troylee]

This is how you win grow outs! dose all these 2 gallons daily!

 

[A_Blind_Reefer]

…..all this talk about urea, I can see it now….DEF/AdBlue dosing.

 

[jonelder68]

This is how you win grow outs! dose all these 2 gallons daily!

Minus the pee water fat man beer

 

[Troylee]

Minus the pee water fat man beer

I’m def a fat man! And it works better than vodka dosing! Haha!

 

[BriDroid]

Pay no attention to Miami he’s just fishing for answers so he can win the sps growouts currently going on! . I’ll stick to ammonia and urea! . My tank loves it! The proof is in the pudding!

What urea are you using? How are you mixing it with the ammonium bicarbonate? I guess I missed that?