Amoxicillin instead Ciprofloxacin against STN

[meermann]

Hi guys,
I read several articles about STN and other coral diseases (like BJD) cured using ciprofloxacin. However it's not too easy to buy this antibiotic in my country. But I have enough amoxicillin instead.

Could I replace ciprofloxacin with amoxicillin and would be recommended dosage (in-tank treatment only)?

I'm aware about risks to expose such antibiotics to environment. So I decided to perform in-tank treatment with following filtering through carbon instead of dips.

 

[ryanjohn1]

Pretty much 99.9% of people here will tell you not to use antibiotics. What are the actual problems you are having and what’s your parameters of the water in your system? You really want to try everything else rather than antibiotics.

 

[meermann]

Pretty much 99.9% of people here will tell you not to use antibiotics. What are the actual problems you are having and what’s your parameters of the water in your system? You really want to try everything else rather than antibiotics.

The problem is: I observe some signs of STN from the base on several acros over a couple of last months and I have no idea why it happened.

I regularly do ICP analysis and there are no evidence of significant concentration of pollutants etc. My Alk is very steady at 7.6-7.8 thanks to KH Director. Ca/Mg are 420/1300. PH is 8.3-8.5. The light is even and enough, 300-400 PAR, I use ATI Straton. The flow is indirect, I use Gyres and Vortechs
I have no livestock could harm corals, only cleaning crew, a tang and a few Chromis viridis.

The major issue bother me: besides the colonies I also have dosens frags in the tank, and some colonies suffer STN whereas frags are absolutely OK and encrust the base rapidly. I measured the light intensity there, it's not the same but pretty close, the only difference maybe 50-80 PAR.

So I don't know the exact reason why it happened. The local tests supplier was working with Aquabiomics for a while, but since December it suspended the partnership. I don't think there's an easy way to make a DNA test at the moment.

 

[crazyfishmom]

I think some photographs would be helpful here. You are absolutely right that your parameters sound great. Maybe I missed this but where are phosphate and nitrate levels at? I’ve had issues with STN when my phosphate levels dropped too quickly due to a new bag of GFO. Just a thought.

 

[ryanjohn1]

Vermitid snails in tank? I’ve see them wreck my sps like that. Stn from base. Hey you tried fragging off the bad part and putting on new plug?

 

[ryanjohn1]

There are so many pests that can cause it too

 

[crazyfishmom]

The problem is: I observe some signs of STN from the base on several acros over a couple of last months and I have no idea why it happened.

I regularly do ICP analysis and there are no evidence of significant concentration of pollutants etc. My Alk is very steady at 7.6-7.8 thanks to KH Director. Ca/Mg are 420/1300. PH is 8.3-8.5. The light is even and enough, 300-400 PAR, I use ATI Straton. The flow is indirect, I use Gyres and Vortechs
I have no livestock could harm corals, only cleaning crew, a tang and a few Chromis viridis.

The major issue bother me: besides the colonies I also have dosens frags in the tank, and some colonies suffer STN whereas frags are absolutely OK and encrust the base rapidly. I measured the light intensity there, it's not the same but pretty close, the only difference maybe 50-80 PAR.

So I don't know the exact reason why it happened. The local tests supplier was working with Aquabiomics for a while, but since December it suspended the partnership. I don't think there's an easy way to make a DNA test at the moment.

I will say this: unless you are extremely experienced and ready to battle the imbalance that normally follows a course of antibiotics in a tank I would suggest treatment outside the tank on a per colony basis if this is an option at all. It could be new tank syndrome on steroids from the disruption of the balanced bacterial populations in the tank not to mention issues with nutrients as you get die off.

 

[meermann]

I think some photographs would be helpful here. You are absolutely right that your parameters sound great. Maybe I missed this but where are phosphate and nitrate levels at? I’ve had issues with STN when my phosphate levels dropped too quickly due to a new bag of GFO. Just a thought.

Regarding NO3, it's around 3ppm. PO4 is .06-.08. I dose .02ppm of PO4 every day.

Pics:
rose acro almost lost the tissue on the base. I cut a branch, glued on a plug and now it started encrusting.


PC Rainbow, very recent signs of STN. That's a reason why I decided to treat with antibiotics. It grew up from a very small stick, but now it loses the tissue on the base.
I already lost 2 colonies of Strawbery Shortcakes, 2 Bali Shortcakes, a Spathulata, Valida Tricolor, Goldfinger, Miyagi Tort, and several unnamed acros.

 

[meermann]

I will say this: unless you are extremely experienced and ready to battle the imbalance that normally follows a course of antibiotics in a tank I would suggest treatment outside the tank on a per colony basis if this is an option at all. It could be new tank syndrome on steroids from the disruption of the balanced bacterial populations in the tank not to mention issues with nutrients as you get die off.

That's what I'd like to avoid.
However I have ~20 colonies in my tank and ~50 frags. Roughly a half of colonies have signs STN at the moment. If other acros would be affected, the only alternative is to restart the tank completely. Sad but better than spend thousands on the corals would be lost in 1 year.

 

[Lohr]

I am not sure in regards to fish specific diseases and the coverage needed for them. However the two antibiotics you referenced, are different families/groups. Cirpo is a broadspectrum fluoroquinolone which is typically good against a wide variety of gram negative as well as gram positive bacteria. Amox is a penicillin base which treats primarily gram positive, and some gram negative. I guess the grander thing I'm saying is you are not comparing similar items. If you have a know specific infection and can find anything related to a gram stain result on it you could narrow down the possibility of an alternate.

 

[crazyfishmom]

That's what I'd like to avoid.
However I have ~20 colonies in my tank and ~50 frags. Roughly a half of colonies have signs STN at the moment. If other acros would be affected, the only alternative is to restart the tank completely. Sad but better than spend thousands on the corals would be lost in 1 year.

Ugh, that’s really rough. I’m sorry. It’s odd that it’s mostly the colonies. Could it be something to do with low nutrients and reduced flow within the colonies?

 

[meermann]

Vermitid snails in tank? I’ve see them wreck my sps like that. Stn from base. Hey you tried fragging off the bad part and putting on new plug?

Yes
Is it a reason? I have vermitids since beginning, often the acros just encrust them. Looks ugly but not fatal...or?
I'm fragging unaffected branches, and it works somehow.
Another way is to cover the damaged base with PMMA glue or like this. Also works somehow.
Example: the last March I had a green acro with Vermetids


Now it looks like and encrusting the base


Another example: on the first photo there's a stick on the left of Emerald crab. There was STN, I covered damages by PMMA glue (some traces of glue are visible). Now it looks like (sorry for the quality):

 

[meermann]

Ugh, that’s really rough. I’m sorry. It’s odd that it’s mostly the colonies. Could it be something to do with low nutrients and reduced flow within the colonies?

Which nutrients do you mean? NO3 and PO4 are above zero. Regarding food particles - I don't use any coral food, but also my fleece roll is disconnected. I definitely have detritus depots in the sump.

It's hard to estimate flow. I have 2 Gyres 330 set vertically at 30% and 2 MP10 at 50% on 40G

 

[meermann]

I am not sure in regards to fish specific diseases and the coverage needed for them. However the two antibiotics you referenced, are different families/groups. Cirpo is a broadspectrum fluoroquinolone which is typically good against a wide variety of gram negative as well as gram positive bacteria. Amox is a penicillin base which treats primarily gram positive, and some gram negative. I guess the grander thing I'm saying is you are not comparing similar items. If you have a know specific infection and can find anything related to a gram stain result on it you could narrow down the possibility of an alternate.

I couldn't investigate which bacteries do I have, since the our local water test supplier doesn't send the samples to Aquabiomics and thus DNA test is unavailable.

@AquaBiomics do you have partners in Europe, preferably in Germany?

But FWIW often such bacteries are Vibrio and Arcobacter. Amoxicillin looks work with Arcobacter. If I'm not wrong it's a pretty common poultry infection which could be mitigated using Amoxicillin...or?

It can be not caused by bacteries at all though.

 

[crazyfishmom]

Which nutrients do you mean? NO3 and PO4 are above zero. Regarding food particles - I don't use any coral food, but also my fleece roll is disconnected. I definitely have detritus depots in the sump.

It's hard to estimate flow. I have 2 Gyres 330 set vertically at 30% and 2 MP10 at 50% on 40G

I understand they’re above zero but as colonies grow their energy needs get higher which is why I’m mentioning it. I think you mentioned that frags are doing well but colonies are suffering. Even though your nutrients are above zero they are on the lower side and if your colonies are growing quickly and well, they may not be getting enough nutrients which is why I also asked about flow. It’s unfortunately a multi prong problem. Now I don’t know that this is what’s happening, I am merely hanging on your mention of frags being fine but colonies suffering.

 

[Lohr]

Achromobacter is gram neg, which can sometimes present itself opportunistically to humans, amox would be an appropriate coverage for human so I imagine the same in coral.

 

[Pistondog]

Chemiclean is used to treat cyano and contains amoxicillin, if you are looking for a source.

 

[meermann]

Chemiclean is used to treat cyano and contains amoxicillin, if you are looking for a source.

Chemiclean is also unavailable in our country. I have another stuff: Blue Life Cyano RX which AFAIK contains erythromycin. But amoxicillin isn't a problem, I have enough of pills. I have no ciprofloxacin, do you know the source for this (beside pills)?

 

[Pistondog]

Chemiclean is also unavailable in our country. I have another stuff: Blue Life Cyano RX which AFAIK contains erythromycin. But amoxicillin isn't a problem, I have enough of pills. I have no ciprofloxacin, do you know the source for this (beside pills)?

Sorry, no.

 

[djf91]

Regarding NO3, it's around 3ppm. PO4 is .06-.08. I dose .02ppm of PO4 every day.

Pics:
rose acro almost lost the tissue on the base. I cut a branch, glued on a plug and now it started encrusting.


PC Rainbow, very recent signs of STN. That's a reason why I decided to treat with antibiotics. It grew up from a very small stick, but now it loses the tissue on the base.
I already lost 2 colonies of Strawbery Shortcakes, 2 Bali Shortcakes, a Spathulata, Valida Tricolor, Goldfinger, Miyagi Tort, and several unnamed acros.

I see what might be bite marks. Have you ruled out AEFW?