As far as protective equipment never mind antibiotics just for general use on your reef gloves eye protection. I know of one person was close to losing his hand and another lost his sight in one eye through toxins and bacteria infection
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I was one to praise the use of antibiotics as it appeared to stop my torch corals mysteriously dying month to month, 1 by 1. That is until it started to happen again. I did a heavy antibiotic bath and a heavy full tank treatment of cipro, amox, and 3x the dose of chemiclean and the pathogens are still present. I sure did see signs of improvement but spoke too soon as it only took a couple months of the issue to return with no new additions to the tank.
I regularly do aquabiomics testing and the pathogens are pretty much the same. I am thinking this visible window into our micro biome is causing us to take drastic measures that are not necessarily helpful long term.
I am taking a hard jump off this antibiotic train. We have grown coral for decades without them and the exploding use of them is starting to concern me more and more. It might not be good for us when animal activists get a whiff of what we have been experimenting with and now more vendors going this route without knowing the long term consequences. Hate to be a party pooper but witnessing the return of the same issue in my own tank and hearing out the warnings of others about the use of meds I am starting to take this a lot more seriously.
Some reading on a study that possibly suggest antibiotics are detrimental to the long term health linked on coral reeftank's thread, post #1,658 - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-83
This is especially concerning with regard to vendors adopting this practice at an alarming rate.
There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel though. This could all be a nutritional issue. I am currently trying his concoction with good results. Take a look at post # 1,612 on his thread. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-81
Who knows though, it could all go downhill again in a couple months and just may need to accept some corals are not meant to be kept long term in a closed system.
You summarized it nicely.I was one to praise the use of antibiotics as it appeared to stop my torch corals mysteriously dying month to month, 1 by 1. That is until it started to happen again. I did a heavy antibiotic bath and a heavy full tank treatment of cipro, amox, and 3x the dose of chemiclean and the pathogens are still present. I sure did see signs of improvement but spoke too soon as it only took a couple months of the issue to return with no new additions to the tank.
I regularly do aquabiomics testing and the pathogens are pretty much the same. I am thinking this visible window into our micro biome is causing us to take drastic measures that are not necessarily helpful long term.
I am taking a hard jump off this antibiotic train. We have grown coral for decades without them and the exploding use of them is starting to concern me more and more. It might not be good for us when animal activists get a whiff of what we have been experimenting with and now more vendors going this route without knowing the long term consequences. Hate to be a party pooper but witnessing the return of the same issue in my own tank and hearing out the warnings of others about the use of meds I am starting to take this a lot more seriously.
Some reading on a study that possibly suggest antibiotics are detrimental to the long term health linked on coral reeftank's thread, post #1,658 - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-83
This is especially concerning with regard to vendors adopting this practice at an alarming rate.
There does seem to be light at the end of the tunnel though. This could all be a nutritional issue. I am currently trying his concoction with good results. Take a look at post # 1,612 on his thread. https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/some-of-my-acro-collection.173621/page-81
Who knows though, it could all go downhill again in a couple months and just may need to accept some corals are not meant to be kept long term in a closed system.
Definitely try the probiotic approach and report back. Some people have had additional success with the purple sulfur bacteria.December 2023
March 2024
Vibrio is actually higher. Yes the planktotellea decreased but is still there. I did do the KFC full tank treatment and that is what I thought is a very high dose of antibiotics. Figured I hit it hard and reduce risks and hopefully non of it survives. Now thinking back I don't think that's possible as it would probably wreak havoc on most your micro biome and crash the tank but that doesn't happen.
My point is the same pathogens are still there and if the dosage I did didn't do the trick, I don't think any amount of antibiotics with in "safe limits" will eliminate the pathogens detected.
After treatment I dosed heavy for one week of Fauna Marin Bacto Therapy. The 2nd week heavy dosing of Fritzym 9.
I have one more test left and will wait a couple of months doing the CRT concoction (of only using zeobak and AF pro bio s) and will try and report back the results. Pretty sure the pathogens will still be there, the question is will I see any more infected corals.
I also am doing a complete 180 on this topic. I think it has quite a bit to do with the prevalence of dry rock today. Check out these articles https://reefbuilders.com/2017/07/08/revisiting-my-elos-tank-after-18-months/December 2023
March 2024
Vibrio is actually higher. Yes the planktotellea decreased but is still there. I did do the KFC full tank treatment and that is what I thought is a very high dose of antibiotics. Figured I hit it hard and reduce risks and hopefully non of it survives. Now thinking back I don't think that's possible as it would probably wreak havoc on most your micro biome and crash the tank but that doesn't happen.
My point is the same pathogens are still there and if the dosage I did didn't do the trick, I don't think any amount of antibiotics with in "safe limits" will eliminate the pathogens detected.
After treatment I dosed heavy for one week of Fauna Marin Bacto Therapy. The 2nd week heavy dosing of Fritzym 9.
I have one more test left and will wait a couple of months doing the CRT concoction (of only using zeobak and AF pro bio s) and will try and report back the results. Pretty sure the pathogens will still be there, the question is will I see any more infected corals.
biologist are already experimenting with this concept though not with McH1-7 to my knowledgeIt seems hit or miss. I actually did full tank cipro treatment twice. The first time when the very first torch got sick. All the torches fluffed up after treatment and it seemed all was good. Months down the road and 3 more torches died. The second time was when cipro was mixed with the KFC method. It just seems like a blind guessing game and not worth the potential future risks.
I did notice when I decided to absolutely do no more antibiotics, I dipped the last sick torch in only PolypLab Reef Primer after the illness re-immerged. It actually got better and survived another week or so where it was showing signs of certain death in at least 24-48 hours in my experience. So it did help but was not enough. When it showed small signs of improvement just by a reef primer dip I really began inspecting for pests but did not find any at all. I dipped it again but it seemed to have gotten too weak to survive the stress. Nothing was in the dip cup either. The small sign of improvement and the small life extension it got after the dip is showing me that I should absolutely dip everything that goes in my future tanks with reef primer specifically. Not a cure at all but hopefully one step closer to prevention. The only problem I see is if the pathogens are internal to the coral. That will probably make things near impossible to fix. Then my hope is better coral nutrition to give it a better fighting chance to resist the pathogen on its own.
Going back to this article Chemical and genomic characterization of a potential probiotic treatment for stony coral tissue loss disease
"The rise of antibiotic-resistant pathogens could render the sole treatment for SCTLD useless and leave managers without a direct mitigation tool. In addition, like most antibiotics, amoxicillin does not provide lasting protection and needs to be repeatedly administered if the initial treatment fails or if the coral is reinfected, which has been observed with SCTLD11,12,13. The latter is concerning, because the agents responsible for SCTLD are unidentified and waterborne;7 therefore, they are present in the environment and capable of reinfecting hosts. Cumulatively, these concerns highlight the need for additional treatment or prevention strategies for SCTLD. One such alternative is the use of beneficial microorganisms, e.g., probiotics, as a potential treatment for coral diseases16."
The most concerning part IMO. Its not a cure, just a band aide as many of us are witnessing now. Only a matter of time until we mutate these pathogens if not already out there in some ones tank. And we all know how easily unseen pests spread through the hobby. I reaaaaally wished this was the answer to a one shot and done cure but it appears not the case at all.
"McH1-7 is the most chemically characterized coral probiotic that is an effective prophylactic and direct treatment for the destructive SCTLD as well as a potential alternative to antibiotic use."
From my unprofessional understanding (an engineer not a biologist) McH1-7 they speak of is derived from Pseudoalteromonas sp. F-420. My aquabiomics test does show Pseudoalteromonadaceae. Is that the same thing or very similar? If so could someone isolate that strain and culture it. It is in my test but very little.
I think the key here is finding the right strains of bacteria similar to that study, culturing it, then "feeding" it to the coral. Also from my understanding each coral has its own unique localized microbiome and just administering new bacteria is great, it seems they need to ingest it to experience the benefits of improving their personalized microbiome.
Man I'm really going down a rabbit hole lately
I treated 3 times actually. The first time was a low dose every other night at .25mg per gallon for 6 days. 2nd time was 1mg per gallon for 5 days. 3rd time was 1mg per gallon along with 1mg per gallon ammox and 3x the recommended dose of chemiclean dosed for 3 nights in a row.
Every dose was done with lights off and meds were stored in the dark in the fridge. Mixed with tank water with a magnetic stirrer for at least 30 minutes. Carbon removed and also protein skimmer and UV shut off during treatment. After treatments different brand bacteria bottles were used.
I usually feed Sustainable Aquatics Hatchery Diet or Frozen Mysis shrimp. Could it be likely it is just re-introduced with the frozen food?
I favor prolonged dosing over short interval and there is a host of medical literature that supports that. Your first attempt may have created resistance by using an insufficient dose for only three days of actual treatment. Standard treatment in medicine is 7-10 days with daily administration and marine bacteria are unlikely to vary from that standard.
I believe that the idea of every other day treatment comes from the use of oxolinic acid to treat pond fish. Dosing of oxolinic acid for pond diseases is done every other day, likely to avoid pond hypoxia from bacterial death. In addition, oxolinic acid in pond water breaks down much slower than ciprofloxacin does under reef aquarium conditions.