Analyzing a Bacterial Method for Dinoflagellates (and cyano?)

[Idoc]

No it’s still on. there are bubbles in the system but very small almost can’t see with naked eye when using Wooden air stone. If I use my ceramic one you can see them much better but guide says to use wooden

Im on Day 6 now and watching my pH very closely. So far no losses of aquatic life. But, I ended up using 2 wooden airstone directly next to my return pump intake but with minimal air flow out of the airstones in order to keep the bubbles very tiny. This created a "smokey" air bubble flow shooting throughout the tank. In the lower flow areas, you can see really small barely visible bubbles suspended in the water column. I have one fire shrimp that seems to be doing great so far... but im through the worst of the CO2 phase now. I would guess you just need a little more bubble flow to push more oxygen to counteract the CO2 increase.

 

[taricha]

Victoria, thanks for the great report. Really excellent stuff!

Siphoned all the visible grey detritus, the smell was horrendous!

This gray stuff is likely a mix of the debris we are trying to get rid of, held together and enmeshed by bacterial growth.

40 ml Vibrant added

This is a lot of vibrant and you added it frequently. Let me make the case that it's not a good idea to use while doing this method.

Water was a little cloudy
Skimmer did not go crazy, just a pretty wet foam

Vibrant appears to clarify water and work against cloudy water at a time when we are trying to get as much material into water as possible.
(Personal unverified observation, it seems to increase growth of other films on algae at the expense of stuff in the water. This may be desirable at other times.)

Rocks have a green tinge to them when all the lights are off but the kitchen lights are on. This is a little concerning as before they looked purple and grey.

Vibrant may also have a hand here, cyano growth in many systems is strengthened by vibrant use.

Overall I would say that it's not clear what vibrant would accomplish during this treatment and may work against some of the things that we want to happen.

(I would totally use vibrant for a few weeks to kill off a bunch of algae, and then use this method to remove and consume all the dead algal material. In fact, that's what I'm currently working on.)

 

[Idoc]

So, what is the plan for maintenance after completing this Elegant Coral Dino/Cyano protocol?

Im on day 7... the tank looks wonderful. I stopped daily testing of NO3 & PO4 after day 2 or 3 when my PO4 went to zero. I was trying to maintain those at around 5-10ppm and 0.05, respectively, before this treatment started. This was after longterm elevated nutrients to fight off the amphidinium dinos... then came the horrendous cyano!

I can dose to bring these up to their targets, but I'm also concerned to make a quick dose so as not to bring the cyano back!

It would be awesome if we could come up with a regular maintenance program for after this. I think I'm a true believer in Dr Tims Waste Away and regular use of micro-bubbles now!!

 

[Cruz_Arias]

So, what is the plan for maintenance after completing this Elegant Coral Dino/Cyano protocol?

Im on day 7... the tank looks wonderful. I stopped daily testing of NO3 & PO4 after day 2 or 3 when my PO4 went to zero. I was trying to maintain those at around 5-10ppm and 0.05, respectively, before this treatment started. This was after longterm elevated nutrients to fight off the amphidinium dinos... then came the horrendous cyano!

I can dose to bring these up to their targets, but I'm also concerned to make a quick dose so as not to bring the cyano back!

It would be awesome if we could come up with a regular maintenance program for after this. I think I'm a true believer in Dr Tims Waste Away and regular use of micro-bubbles now!!

This is a suggestion and have only seen positives following the post regimen treatment...

Continue fresh-air, fine bubble aeration from "lights off" to "lights on", would be my maintenance suggestion as well as adding in some additional biodiversity, such as LRE and NuAlgi at this point.
To initiate a controlled diatom bloom, Miracle Mud 5# or 10# (which is known to be rich in natural silicates) plus NuAlgi (diatom seed culture) will help occupy and establish a "healthy" diatom population.

 

[Idoc]

This is a suggestion and have only seen positives following the post regimen treatment...

Continue fresh-air, fine bubble aeration from "lights off" to "lights on", would be my maintenance suggestion as well as adding in some additional biodiversity, such as LRE and NuAlgi at this point.
To initiate a controlled diatom bloom, Miracle Mud 5# or 10# (which is known to be rich in natural silicates) plus NuAlgi (diatom seed culture) will help occupy and establish a "healthy" diatom population.

Thanks! But what is LRE?

Also, the only NuAlgi I could find on Google was for ponds...dosed at 1mL per 1000 gallons on a weekly basis....so about 0.1mL per 100g in an aquarium. Is this the stuff you meant? If so, it's an algacide... don't we want to encourage some algae growth to continue to out-compete the dinos?

 

[Victoria M]

Victoria, thanks for the great report. Really excellent stuff!

This gray stuff is likely a mix of the debris we are trying to get rid of, held together and enmeshed by bacterial growth.


This is a lot of vibrant and you added it frequently. Let me make the case that it's not a good idea to use while doing this method.


Vibrant appears to clarify water and work against cloudy water at a time when we are trying to get as much material into water as possible.
(Personal unverified observation, it seems to increase growth of other films on algae at the expense of stuff in the water. This may be desirable at other times.)

Vibrant may also have a hand here, cyano growth in many systems is strengthened by vibrant use.

Overall I would say that it's not clear what vibrant would accomplish during this treatment and may work against some of the things that we want to happen.

(I would totally use vibrant for a few weeks to kill off a bunch of algae, and then use this method to remove and consume all the dead algal material. In fact, that's what I'm currently working on.)

I am not sure why I put it in those days other than impulse. No science at all! I experienced minimally cloudy water yet still had excellent results.
I got it to use afterwards. But reading some of the info in the threads I thought it could help. I thought Vibrant is a bacterial blend also? And I thought full disclosure was best. #honestyin reefing LOL. The red cyano patches are gone, and there are scant green cyano patches this morning. You think it could be the Vibrant eh? Time will tell. I will continue to share my dino journey.
I felt it best to remove visible chunks or mats of detritus and let the process work on all the places I can not see. For practical purposes with the goal of ridding the aquarium of nuisance/unsightly detritus & possible fuel for more algae or dinos siphoning it out seemed the best course of action. I can see for the purpose of figuring out the mechanism of action you might have wanted it to just run its course. Sorry lol.
One thing I thought about during this treatment is blowing out rock while stiring up sand. I forgot to mention I did that too.
Time will tell if the amphidinium return. I hope not.
And by the way. I I used double the normal top off water, and my temp dropped almost 2 degrees. So maybe my skimmer did go nuts at some point or maybe the aeration increased evaporation. Little of both most likely. the temps have gotten cold at night so probably contributed to the temp drop.

 

[Victoria M]

But if I let it sit there in a visible area and we saw it shrink we would have understood a little more. Sorry! LOL

 

[Cruz_Arias]

Thanks! But what is LRE?

Also, the only NuAlgi I could find on Google was for ponds...dosed at 1mL per 1000 gallons on a weekly basis....so about 0.1mL per 100g in an aquarium. Is this the stuff you meant? If so, it's an algacide... don't we want to encourage some algae growth to continue to out-compete the dinos?

LRE = Live Rock Enhance
See photo for Nualgi.
After speaking with the manufacturers, it's a diatom seed culture that out competes the nuisance algaes for nutrients.

 

[taricha]

felt it best to remove visible chunks or mats of detritus and let the process work on all the places I can not see. For practical purposes with the goal of ridding the aquarium of nuisance/unsightly detritus & possible fuel for more algae or dinos siphoning it out seemed the best course of action. I can see for the purpose of figuring out the mechanism of action you might have wanted it to just run its course. Sorry lol.

Not at all!
Sorry I was unclear. I absolutely think that the gray material ought to be vacuumed out in line with what the method recommends. Part of what makes the method work, I think, is that the increased bacterial mats entangle the waste particles and make suctioning them out much easier.
I was just offering commentary on your observations.
Vibrant is bacteria, but it's a whole 'nother thing. I'm currently using it to grow carpets of cyano covering my sanded.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

LRE = Live Rock Enhance
See photo for Nualgi.
After speaking with the manufacturers, it's a diatom seed culture that out competes the nuisance algaes for nutrients.

That’s their claim, but lots of folks have posted that it did not have that effect in their aquarium.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

That’s their claim, but lots of folks have posted that it did not have that effect in their aquarium.

Sometimes this "proprietary information" by manufacturers is a hindrance to the hobby. .. LoL

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sometimes this "proprietary information" by manufacturers is a hindrance to the hobby. .. LoL

I’m my tank, the diatom “seeds” were already there, they just needed silicate to outcompete the green algae on my glass.

 

[Idoc]

LRE = Live Rock Enhance
See photo for Nualgi.
After speaking with the manufacturers, it's a diatom seed culture that out competes the nuisance algaes for nutrients.

I’m my tank, the diatom “seeds” were already there, they just needed silicate to outcompete the green algae on my glass.

Well, I have some SpongExcel still here from attempting to dose silicates previously to create a diatom bloom to out compete the dinos. Unfortunately, I was never able to create that diatom bloom, though. I could use that for now until i can obtain something different.

Also, isn't the Live Rock Enhance a similar product to Dr Tims Waste Away? Why not just continue a weekly or every couple of weeks dosing some of the ATM Colony and the Waste Away?

 

[Dan_P]

Well, I have some SpongExcel still here from attempting to dose silicates previously to create a diatom bloom to out compete the dinos. Unfortunately, I was never able to create that diatom bloom, though. I could use that for now until i can obtain something different.

Also, isn't the Live Rock Enhance a similar product to Dr Tims Waste Away? Why not just continue a weekly or every couple of weeks dosing some of the ATM Colony and the Waste Away?

Why the continual dosing? Do these bacteria die out or lose out to established bacteria? Continuous dosing might be a marketing tool?

 

[Idoc]

Well, 3 days after completing the treatment method...my cyano is back in full force (after only 1-2 days it started to show up on the rocks, but not in the sand) and today the sand is a little brown in a patch (suspect dino return)! The tank looked so beautiful immediately after the cleaning... how disappointjng!! After the treatment, my NO3 & PO4 were zero, of course. So I have been slowly dosing those nutrients back up to 4ppm & 0.052ppm, respectively, (yesterday's readings).

I hate to put my livestock through another week of treatment again, but I guess I have to!

Cyano on rocks:

Brown patching in sand:

Any ideas why that cyano would come back so quickly? Are there different mechanisms of how green vs red cyano grows? I see the red occasionally in my sump, but only the green cyano in my DT. I wonder if it's my lighting (RapidLED Onyx lights)?

@taricha but, interestingly...the sand dino sample i just pulled doesn't look like amphidinium dinos (that plagued that area of the sand before the treatment), but rather Ostreopsis dinos!

 

[scottrotton]

4 days after treatment number 2 there was a reduction for 2-3 days at the end of treatment but now cyano is worse than ever in day 4 post treatment. Also have some rtn so prob won’t try this again. I could try chemiclean but don’t want to allow Dino’s to get a foothold so not sure where to go from here?

 

[taricha]

Any ideas why that cyano would come back so quickly? Are there different mechanisms of how green vs red cyano grows? I see the red occasionally in my sump, but only the green cyano in my DT. I wonder if it's my lighting (RapidLED Onyx lights)?

@taricha but, interestingly...the sand dino sample i just pulled doesn't look like amphidinium dinos (that plagued that area of the sand before the treatment), but rather Ostreopsis dinos!

I assume cyano rapid return is related to some of its food source still being present.
The rocks may still hold a bit of goodies.

Cyano color differences can be tied to lights, but also to nutrient content of the food that drives it. In my sump, cyano is green (under whiter / yellower LED light) , and in my DT always red (bluer T5 light).

Those are indeed ostreopsis dinos.
(Overall comment. Your sand/rocks look really white and raw. I'd expect more coloration on a mature system, and I'm not sure how white it makes sense to aim for. Just thoughts)

 

[taricha]

LRE = Live Rock Enhance

This product claims to provide enzyme cellulase and bacteria that produces cellulase - to break down cellulose from dead algal material.
That's an interesting product & claim in the context of this discussion about digesting aquarium waste.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

4 days after treatment number 2 there was a reduction for 2-3 days at the end of treatment but now cyano is worse than ever in day 4 post treatment. Also have some rtn so prob won’t try this again. I could try chemiclean but don’t want to allow Dino’s to get a foothold so not sure where to go from here?

First, what are your parameters?
Alk to pH, etc.

Are you still bubbling with fresh air at night?
Are you bringing fresh air to your skimmer?

Photos will help

 

[Idoc]

(Overall comment. Your sand/rocks look really white and raw. I'd expect more coloration on a mature system, and I'm not sure how white it makes sense to aim for. Just thoughts)

The sand is Tropic Eden which is known for extremely white coloration. When i vacuum the sand or just hit it with a turkey baster to push any debri into the water column, it turns perfectly white again!

I have always been concerned about my rock's maturity. Almost 2 years and extremely little coraline growth...past few months I have finally seen some coraline growth, but it's a deep red coloration popping up in several places. Its pukani rock; therefore probably the source of my problems...deep crevices everywhere for debri to collect! I may do a reboot with different rock if i can't get this under control. When i started, I couldn't get any nutrients in this system for almost a year...zero nitrates and phosphates! After the first signs of dinos, I started gave up on heavy feeding and just started dosing No3/Po4 directly. I got huge GHA blooms on my back glass wall only...hardly anything on the rocks!

Strangely, that bright green cyano grows on the rocks even in direct flow from a powerhead! I'll try to get better rock pics later today and also microscope cyano pics to just be sure that is what I'm dealing with.