Another Triton ICP "High Tin" Case

[Dr. Jim]

I cannot. IMO, this sort of statement is terribly misleading.

Well...to be more clear....what I agree with is:

1) Tin concentrations above some level that hasn't been definitively established can lead to creeping tissue detachment and death in fast-growing SPS.

2) If it can be agreed that tin can cause a problem even though that exact level determined by ICP is not clear, there has to be some kind of guideline for a reefer when confronted with an elevated tin level.

As I suggested earlier:
If one is having problems with SPS and can't find any other possible cause, then I would certainly investigate the source of the tin. (And, I suggested that tin MAY become a problem with levels over 10-15...just to give a ballpark range as to when one might become concerned.)

 

[Petesreef]

I think the bigger concern could be all the plastics that we use and the variability in manufacturing and the potential toxicity due to leaching of known and unknown compounds

 

[PSXerholic]

Here's the quote from Fauna Marin that I referred to earlier (but couldn't find at the time):

TIN​

"Tin occurs in seawater up to 3 µg/l (0,26 US.liq.gal.) and should be kept below 10 µg/l (0,26 US.liq.gal.) due to its harmful effect on SPS. Tin concentrations above the recommended values can lead to creeping tissue detachment and death in fast-growing SPS."

I can agree with this!

I don’t.
Love them to death, but it’s as experimental as I would do it.
Dang, start to sound like Randy lol

Just have seen too many times Tin in the 20-30s with exceptional results that I started to feel it’s somewhat important.
But also what Randy said earlier, we have to look at the other compounds that Tin is coming from.

If Tin is a leeching aftertaste from something corroded, then wow, the other elements released can’t be good!!!! And the ICP gives use only a very small picture.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well...to be more clear....what I agree with is:

1) Tin concentrations above some level that hasn't been definitively established can lead to creeping tissue detachment and death in fast-growing SPS.

2) If it can be agreed that tin can cause a problem even though that exact level determined by ICP is not clear, there has to be some kind of guideline for a reefer when confronted with an elevated tin level.

As I suggested earlier:
If one is having problems with SPS and can't find any other possible cause, then I would certainly investigate the source of the tin. (And, I suggested that tin MAY become a problem with levels over 10-15...just to give a ballpark range as to when one might become concerned.)

I don't have any pre-conceived notion of what levels of tin compounds may be a problem for any given organism.

It is the generalization of "tin' as if it were a specific single thing that I find problematic.

I could claim that carbon is deadly when consumed by humans, but while that could be true if it is in the form of cyanide, it is not true when in the form of sugar.

There is no reason to assume that every reef tank with tin has the same form(s).

No one has EVER identified any form of tin in any reef tank that I have seen.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I'd just like to mention something interesting: I thought I was finally getting my tin level under control but recently noticed it elevated again (45). I traced it to a new braided plastic tubing (from Lowes) that I recently started using (for 2-3 weeks). Before using it, I "soak-tested" the tubing (in 2 gal RO/DI for 5 days). The result came back at 2014 ug/l.

A while back, I mentioned that I started using TYGON tubing (advertised to be very inert). The tin "soak-test" for that came back at only 11 but I replaced it because a foul-smelling slime formed inside it (and it was extremely flimsy. There are other "model #s" for Tygon tubing but I couldn't get any guidance from tech support so just ordered this one).

--------------------------------

I would like to make this my final statement on this thread:

“Red Sea has been very cooperative and helpful in terms of helping me with my tin issue and after much discussion I can no longer be convinced that the levels of tin found in my experiments have caused the loss of my SPS corals. I therefore do not hold Red Sea responsible for the loss of my corals and appreciate the guidance they have offered.”
--James McKinley, DVM, DABVP

 

[spsick]

To recap, Dr Jim you observed it took months to stop tin leaching out of plastics?

Running my new system in the basement with heated RO water for a month to hopefully pull it out. Plastics consist of PVC plumbing, BK mini skimmer, Tunze return pump, Modular Marine overflow, and Bashsea sump. The last 2 being acrylic so SHOULDN’T leach anything. I’m now feeling less confident that will be sufficient but goodness it has to be a good start!

 

[Acrofiend]

Did replacing the tubing lower your levels? I’m currently having problems with sps and my levels came back high on Red Sea nano. (63 micrograms)

 

[Dr. Jim]

To recap, Dr Jim you observed it took months to stop tin leaching out of plastics?

Running my new system in the basement with heated RO water for a month to hopefully pull it out. Plastics consist of PVC plumbing, BK mini skimmer, Tunze return pump, Modular Marine overflow, and Bashsea sump. The last 2 being acrylic so SHOULDN’T leach anything. I’m now feeling less confident that will be sufficient but goodness it has to be a good start!

Hey spsick.....sorry that I'm just seeing your question now.....

Over the 10-11 months that my tank was set up while I was running ICP tests, I'd have to say that, at best, I saw very little reduction in tin-leaching, unfortunately. As I mentioned elsewhere, the tin is incorporated throughout the plastic, not just on the surface like with glass, so it would make sense that as the plastic "wears," (if that is possible), there would always be "new" tin exposed. (I can't be sure of that though).

 

[Dr. Jim]

Did replacing the tubing lower your levels? I’m currently having problems with sps and my levels came back high on Red Sea nano. (63 micrograms)

I haven't run another ICP test since I replaced the PVC tubing with the TYGON tubing so I can't give you a definite answer. Sorry. And, because I am awaiting a new tank to replace my current tank, I probably won't be running another ICP test. I may at some point in the future run an "ICP-soak test" on the TYGON if I continue to have tin problems with my new tank.

It seems that I am seeing no more RTN/STN but that seemed to stop once my remaining 25 (0f 70) SPS frags were all reduced to small nubs and that time period started shortly before switching to the TYGON, so I can't say that the "leveling off" is because of switching to the TYGON (but from discussions with the TYGON techs, I'm rather confident that my tin level is probably falling.)

Sn at 63 along with SPS problems would make me very suspicious that the tin is causing a problem (especially if you used Triton ICP which I believe gives lower tin values than AtI.)

 

[Badilac]

I'd just like to mention something interesting: I thought I was finally getting my tin level under control but recently noticed it elevated again (45). I traced it to a new braided plastic tubing (from Lowes) that I recently started using (for 2-3 weeks). Before using it, I "soak-tested" the tubing (in 2 gal RO/DI for 5 days). The result came back at 2014 ug/l.

A while back, I mentioned that I started using TYGON tubing (advertised to be very inert). The tin "soak-test" for that came back at only 11 but I replaced it because a foul-smelling slime formed inside it (and it was extremely flimsy. There are other "model #s" for Tygon tubing but I couldn't get any guidance from tech support so just ordered this one).

--------------------------------

I would like to make this my final statement on this thread:

“Red Sea has been very cooperative and helpful in terms of helping me with my tin issue and after much discussion I can no longer be convinced that the levels of tin found in my experiments have caused the loss of my SPS corals. I therefore do not hold Red Sea responsible for the loss of my corals and appreciate the guidance they have offered.”
--James McKinley, DVM, DABVP

I'm using this same lowes tubing on my 300g system and I got Tin results of 28.6 on my Oceamo test. I guess I can assume this tubing is maybe the problem or part of the problem. Not sure what to replace it with? I have a bunch of this hose in my plumbing for my chiller, and skimmer.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I'm using this same lowes tubing on my 300g system and I got Tin results of 28.6 on my Oceamo test. I guess I can assume this tubing is maybe the problem or part of the problem. Not sure what to replace it with? I have a bunch of this hose in my plumbing for my chiller, and skimmer.

I wrote about an inert tubing (TYGON 2475) in this thread: Tin Leaching from Common Plastic Tubing and a Very Inert Tubing that I Found | REEF2REEF Saltwater and Reef Aquarium Forum

I have been using it for a couple of months but have not "soak-tested" it nor have I run an ICP test on the main tank since I started using it but I am confident that this tubing is a good choice after speaking with the Tygon techs.

My remaining "chips" of SPS frags have started to turn around but it may be due to a completely new 100 gal system (after switching from my original 34 gal SPS Q-tank). It may be a long time before I run another ICP test anticipating moving in the near future especially if I continue to see no further problems.

BTW, a tin level of 28 may not be harmful although I can understand wanting to lower it.

 

[PSXerholic]

I haven't run another ICP test since I replaced the PVC tubing with the TYGON tubing so I can't give you a definite answer. Sorry. And, because I am awaiting a new tank to replace my current tank, I probably won't be running another ICP test. I may at some point in the future run an "ICP-soak test" on the TYGON if I continue to have tin problems with my new tank.

It seems that I am seeing no more RTN/STN but that seemed to stop once my remaining 25 (0f 70) SPS frags were all reduced to small nubs and that time period started shortly before switching to the TYGON, so I can't say that the "leveling off" is because of switching to the TYGON (but from discussions with the TYGON techs, I'm rather confident that my tin level is probably falling.)

Sn at 63 along with SPS problems would make me very suspicious that the tin is causing a problem (especially if you used Triton ICP which I believe gives lower tin values than AtI.)

Interesting, I smelled the tubing from them which was already a no go with these strong plastic scents. Can't be good and I know a lot phenol in there can fuel all sort of bacteria.

These tubes are a no-go!!!!

 

[Badilac]

I wrote about an inert tubing (TYGON 2475) in this thread: Tin Leaching from Common Plastic Tubing and a Very Inert Tubing that I Found | REEF2REEF Saltwater and Reef Aquarium Forum

I have been using it for a couple of months but have not "soak-tested" it nor have I run an ICP test on the main tank since I started using it but I am confident that this tubing is a good choice after speaking with the Tygon techs.

My remaining "chips" of SPS frags have started to turn around but it may be due to a completely new 100 gal system (after switching from my original 34 gal SPS Q-tank). It may be a long time before I run another ICP test anticipating moving in the near future especially if I continue to see no further problems.

BTW, a tin level of 28 may not be harmful although I can understand wanting to lower it.

Dr. Jim Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post. I will have to work on replacing the lines at some point. I have very few corals so I guess it's no real rush.