Another Triton ICP "High Tin" Case

[Dr. Jim]

I know elevated Tin levels have been discussed many times, but I would like to ask some specific questions pertaining to my situation involving Sn = 18 ug/l. (Set point is 0.1 ug/l)

My tank (Red Sea Reefer 170L/40gal) and all equipment was brand new 4 months ago. Over the past 4-8 weeks, 30 SPS frags were added. One has died; 3 show tissue regression from the base; none have showed much growth; many were brown or pale when obtained and some improved (with their color) and others are the same. I've been discouraged by the poor growth, perhaps blaming my 2 new G5 X15 Radions. (These are my first LED's after 20+ years with halides). I'm hoping the poor growth is due to the tin and not the LED's!)

Here are my thoughts and questions:

1) Has anyone suspected tin leaching from glass from Red Sea tanks? ...or Aqueon tanks? (which I use for RO/DI reservoir and salt mixing). Leaching from glass might be my strongest suspicion since the system is relatively new.

2) Since the Zn, Cu, Cr and Ni levels were all zero or below the set points, with how much certainty can we rule out metal corrosion? I thoroughly inspected my RO/DI room and will tackle my tank and sump later today but I highly doubt that metal corrosion would be the problem without the other metals rising. Agree?

3) Can PVC primer and/or cement contain tin? (Most of the PVC pipes I used were "old" or previously used but am wondering about the primer and cement).

4) How likely is it that tin could be in Carib Sea Dry Rock? (Half my rock is this dry rock; half is "live" Gulf of Mexico rock.)

5) I've used TLF epoxy putty for years with no problems but someone recently gave me a different brand. I think it was an Oceans Wonders product. Does anyone know if these epoxys can contain tin?

(I plan to do 30% water changes every 2-3 days 5-6 times and have some Metasorb on order, expecting delivery in 4 days. BTW, the salt I started with was I.O. "original" but last 55gal was Red Sea "Blue" that I finished today. Will be using Tropic Marin Pro for now on).

Thanks for helping!

 

[esther]

So, I've done three Triton tests and over 4 months, Tin has gone from 5.295 to 15 to 7.098 µg/l. I cannot for the life of me figure out where it's coming from. We have a Waterbox tank, no PVC, no dry rock.

Following along to see how others chime in.

 

[ScottB]

I have varying degrees of conviction on my replies to your specific questions.

1) I have read about Tin leaching from new tank glass. I have yet to see a controlled experiment to prove either way. Just anecdotal conjecture. I've had 3 Red Sea tanks and a few Deep Blue / Seapora frags systems with no measurable Tin.

2) I doubt corrosion and agree your logic.

3) Doubtful.

4) Can't say for sure. I use Carib Sea along with half the folks here, probably.

5) Again, doubtful.

A couple unsolicited comments/suggestions:

a) For a few reasons, get an ATI test done. i) Could be false readings. ii) You send them 2 samples by default. One obviously is tank water, the other (typically RO/DI) could be RODI, or mixed salt water before reaching the tank. You will need to TELL THEM what your second sample is. This will help you rule out/in a few things.

b) A 3-5% loss rate of SPS deaths in a 4 month old system is pretty darn good. Honestly, I don't believe Tin is your "problem". Biome immaturity is much more likely an issue. I do believe it is a good idea to get to the bottom of it though.

c) I "feel" like I see elevated Tin reported by Triton pretty frequently. Thus, my first suggestion.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I have varying degrees of conviction on my replies to your specific questions.

1) I have read about Tin leaching from new tank glass. I have yet to see a controlled experiment to prove either way. Just anecdotal conjecture. I've had 3 Red Sea tanks and a few Deep Blue / Seapora frags systems with no measurable Tin.

2) I doubt corrosion and agree your logic.

3) Doubtful.

4) Can't say for sure. I use Carib Sea along with half the folks here, probably.

5) Again, doubtful.

A couple unsolicited comments/suggestions:

a) For a few reasons, get an ATI test done. i) Could be false readings. ii) You send them 2 samples by default. One obviously is tank water, the other (typically RO/DI) could be RODI, or mixed salt water before reaching the tank. You will need to TELL THEM what your second sample is. This will help you rule out/in a few things.

b) A 3-5% loss rate of SPS deaths in a 4 month old system is pretty darn good. Honestly, I don't believe Tin is your "problem". Biome immaturity is much more likely an issue. I do believe it is a good idea to get to the bottom of it though.

c) I "feel" like I see elevated Tin reported by Triton pretty frequently. Thus, my first suggestion.

I've been meaning to read up on comparisons of Triton vs ATI. Now that you mentioned it, I agree that sending water to ATI would be a good idea. (I'll follow up later with my results.....but by the time Monday comes around, I may have performed 2 or 3 water changes (25-30% each).
(Even if Triton is off 50-fold, the value is still high so I feel like I need to do the water changes without waiting for further tests. I'll probably do an ATI and Triton at the same time.)
Thanks for helping!

 

[Dr. Jim]

Sorry to bring up this thread again.....but I'm a bit baffled!

As described in my original post, about a month ago a Triton test showed Tin=18 (normal is 0.1). I then performed 4 water changes over the next 5 days: 25%, 30%, 30%, 30% which should have brought the level to about 4.8. I then used TLF Metasorb for 5 days (placed in sump mesh sock so had good water flow on/thru it). But, I noticed that tin is not listed as one of the metals that Metasorb removes, although it has been suggested many times on the forums. I then performed another 20% water change, so even if the Metasorb did nothing, the level should have been around 3.9.

Five days later, I sent water to Triton and ATI. I got the Triton test back today (11 days later) and the Tin is 22! (The ATI test supposedly will be ready in 4-5 more days; ATI will also test the RO/DI water). If the ATI shows high tin, then I know I have a problem (but two high readings in a row from Triton should be suspicious enough).

In the meantime, I'm wondering:
1) Has anybody seen tin leaching from an RO/DI system? (I use all BRS components).
2) There is "talk" of tin leaching from certain types of glass (Low Iron?) but would that include glass used for inexpensive Aqueon tanks? (I use a 29 gallon Aqueon for a reservoir and another one for the salt mixing tank). I use Tropic Marin Pro salt. Main tank is Red Sea Reefer 170. Daily AWC's of 1.5L are performed.

I know someone will ask: How are the corals doing? Short answer is that I'm not thrilled with their progress but it is hard to know why because of so many variables:
-30 SPS frags were put in a small tank in the past 2-3 months: 170L (40 actual gallons of water) and the tank has only been running for 5 months. (Everything was brand new; I searched for rusty metal anyway).
-I've been doing a lot of experimenting with pH which may have been stressful to the corals as well as some GHL Controller mishaps with ATO and kalk.
-50% dry rock (Carib Sea)….never again!
-I'm playing around with LED's (two G5RadionXR15's) for the first time, after 20+ years of halides.

Frags have not shown any growth which has been frustrating. (I've been blaming the LED's all along...in fact, I just ordered a halide fixture! ....will probably stress them some more! ;Woot …...

I'll post again when I get the ATI results....but if anyone would like to share their thoughts about my 2 questions above, or any of this....I'm all ears! Thanks!

 

[Dan_P]

I know elevated Tin levels have been discussed many times, but I would like to ask some specific questions pertaining to my situation involving Sn = 18 ug/l. (Set point is 0.1 ug/l)

My tank (Red Sea Reefer 170L/40gal) and all equipment was brand new 4 months ago. Over the past 4-8 weeks, 30 SPS frags were added. One has died; 3 show tissue regression from the base; none have showed much growth; many were brown or pale when obtained and some improved (with their color) and others are the same. I've been discouraged by the poor growth, perhaps blaming my 2 new G5 X15 Radions. (These are my first LED's after 20+ years with halides). I'm hoping the poor growth is due to the tin and not the LED's!)

Here are my thoughts and questions:

1) Has anyone suspected tin leaching from glass from Red Sea tanks? ...or Aqueon tanks? (which I use for RO/DI reservoir and salt mixing). Leaching from glass might be my strongest suspicion since the system is relatively new.

2) Since the Zn, Cu, Cr and Ni levels were all zero or below the set points, with how much certainty can we rule out metal corrosion? I thoroughly inspected my RO/DI room and will tackle my tank and sump later today but I highly doubt that metal corrosion would be the problem without the other metals rising. Agree?

3) Can PVC primer and/or cement contain tin? (Most of the PVC pipes I used were "old" or previously used but am wondering about the primer and cement).

4) How likely is it that tin could be in Carib Sea Dry Rock? (Half my rock is this dry rock; half is "live" Gulf of Mexico rock.)

5) I've used TLF epoxy putty for years with no problems but someone recently gave me a different brand. I think it was an Oceans Wonders product. Does anyone know if these epoxys can contain tin?

(I plan to do 30% water changes every 2-3 days 5-6 times and have some Metasorb on order, expecting delivery in 4 days. BTW, the salt I started with was I.O. "original" but last 55gal was Red Sea "Blue" that I finished today. Will be using Tropic Marin Pro for now on).

Thanks for helping!

You missed one possibility in your list. The ICP value is questionable. Unless we have a 95% confidence interval For a test, how do we know how big a range there is in the result? How do we knowhow close it is the real value? Maybe you don’t have a problem.

 

[Dr. Jim]

You missed one possibility in your list. The ICP value is questionable. Unless we have a 95% confidence interval For a test, how do we know how big a range there is in the result? How do we knowhow close it is the real value? Maybe you don’t have a problem.

Thanks Dan. I've been hoping it is an "error".....but 2 in a row is a little suspicious. I'm not panicking yet.....but might if the ATI test shows an elevation, also. (If this was one of my former, well-established tanks, and suddenly corals started to suffer, then it would be more likely the tin would be a problem. But with my "young" tank, there are too many variables, as I mentioned).
Thanks for helping.

 

[ScottB]

I am guessing you read some of the other high Tin threads around here. Remarkably common, and remarkably puzzling.

If the ATI comes back high as well... that is three strikes. I don't have high conviction the elevated tin is a problem though. Others can speak to that.

IIRC, some folks speculated that GFO might bind tin. I clearly recall people saying that GFO would bind aluminum. Close enough? I don't know, perhaps @Randy Holmes-Farley can speak to that. If you do try the GFO route, I would keep some PO4 solution around so you don't hit zero and kill your SPS for sure. And then get dinos.

Lastly, if your SPS don't thrive in a young tank I would not correlate that outcome necessarily to elevated tin. Immature systems are tough places for most SPS. The biome is just too volatile.

 

[Cory]

Id use the triton detox for the tin if that works as it seems to be the most effective for these things.

Any magnets in the tank?

 

[Dr. Jim]

Id use the triton detox for the tin if that works as it seems to be the most effective for these things.

Any magnets in the tank?

I read an old post from someone from Triton where he said that DETOX does not work for Sn (which is why it is not recommended on their "remedies" page of the report when Sn is elevated).

I have magnets and have checked them, but if they were corroding, I would expect other metals besides Sn to be elevated. Thanks for asking though.

I had a long phone conversation with Jack from Brightwell today. He is sending me some of his new Continuum Power Cleanse Heavy Metal. It is a deionization-like product. It has not been tested with Zn but he feels as though it should "work." He said I am only the second person to ask him about it working with Zn, so it isn't likely it will be tested. I told him about all the threads about ICP elevated Sn in hopes of him doing so.....but I understand the economics of testing.
Yesterday, I put some TLF MetaSorb in the sump. Today, I was able to get a Polyfilter at a LFS; In 2 days I have Seachem Cuprisorb coming; in 4 days I will be getting the Power Cleanse from Brightwell, carbon from BRS, and hopefully the ATI results. If I don't kill my corals with all this stuff....nothing will!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think all glass is float glass, floated on molten tin. Not sure where the special glass idea came from.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Yes, Randy, I just read up on it and it appears that all plate glass has tin on one side. Here are 3 ways to determine which side has the tin (although for the first method you would need to do before setting up the tank, obviously!....so it won't help me right now, but maybe the second method will work)

1) The water droplet method. While this method is fairly simple, gravity can make it problematic. After you clean the glass thoroughly, place a single drop of water gently onto the glass from about 1 to 1.5 inches away on both sides of the glass. (Don’t touch the glass when you drop the water.) Then compare the results. If the water drop spreads out, it’s the non-tin side. If it stays firm, it’s the tin side.

2) The UV Light Method. A shortwave UV light can detect the tin side. To use this method, you need to turn off the lights to the room, then roll the UV light across the edge of the glass. The tin side will glow; the air side won’t.

3) Use the Tin-Side Digital Detector. This is the easiest and most reliable source for detecting the tin side. Simply place the meter on both sides of the glass and the detector will immediately let you know which side is the tin surface.

Tin Side Detector, Item #54-04

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks!

I personally do not think method 1 is reliable for a home piece of glass since you will not be able to know if you removed all organic matter from the surface or not.

 

[Joedubyk]

maybe your salt mix has tin in it? If you're doing so many WC and it keeps going up, that seems like the likely source? I always use Tropic marin. As a stick head with lots of expensive sticks I won't try and save a few bucks with cheaper mixes

 

[Dr. Jim]

maybe your salt mix has tin in it? If you're doing so many WC and it keeps going up, that seems like the likely source? I always use Tropic marin. As a stick head with lots of expensive sticks I won't try and save a few bucks with cheaper mixes

To summarize: After 4 water changes (25-30% each) over 5 days, the tin should have dropped from 18 to about 3.9 (and perhaps lower IF the MetaSorb "worked.") I should have sent water out immediately after that (but waited 5 days because I like to ship water on Mondays, going from NJ to CA. Next time, I will time this better). Since the tin came back even higher (22) I immediately thought of either: RO/DI filter; RO/DI glass storage tank, and/or glass salt mixing tank. The big question is, how likely is it that Sn could come back in just 5 days? I'm thinking, "not likely" but anything is possible. (All water changes were with Tropic Marin Pro).

Plan: Still awaiting ATI results (2 more days?) which might change plans, but if ATI shows elevated Sn that will be "3 strikes" so I can be fairly confident that I have elevated tin.
ATI is also testing RO/DI (directly out of filter). If elevated Sn is found in DT but zero in RO/DI filter, that would make RO/DI tank and/or salt mixing tank very suspicious. (I would then send out samples of each of them).
For now: No water changes; 5 days of Polyfilter, MetaSorb and Seachem Cuprisorb; then 5 days of Brightwell Power Cleanse Heavy Metal; then 5 days carbon; then retest immediately.

I don't know how likely the Sn would increase in just 5 days after all the water changes, but if that happened, I'm wondering about Sn leaching from plastic. (I wrote about this in the Triton forum so I apologize for the duplication here). I have 2 Vortech guards in the tank which are made of an "unusual-looking" plastic (which I have just removed). (You may be able to see what I mean in this photo; click to enlarge):

NemProtect Powerhead Guard for Vortech MP10

With the recent influx of 3D printed products hitting the market, there have been a handful of innovative products. The new NemProtect stands out as a really great answer to the needs of anemone keepers everywhere. Flow is a critical element in reef and anemone tanks, but powerheads pose a...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Does anyone (@Randy Holmes-Farley) know of a lab where I can send a piece of plastic to be tested for tin? (I may do this if other "steps" fail; I am awaiting a reply from one randomly chosen lab I found online).

RE: Tin on glass. I tried to inspect my glass with a UV/ozone sterilizer that I modified with aluminum foil with a slit. I couldn't tell very well (and couldn't spend much time because I was holding my breathe because of the ozone! Just gave my wife one more thing to make me feel silly about! ). I will order an UV flashlight if the ATI test comes back with elevated Sn.

 

[esther]

Looking forward to seeing your results!

 

[Rick Krejci]

I had an issue with Triton where my strontium was through the roof. I wrote to them and it turned out it was a clerical error and they were a factor of 1000 off. I'm glad I didn't panic and do massive water changes! I did send a few weeks later to ATI and there were other unexplainable discrepancies between Triton and ATI and my Apex Trident.

As Dan indicates, without hard data on the confidence intervals, I wouldn't take these tests as gospel. If 90% of the results are accurate, but you don't know what 10% isn't, you may end up doing more harm than good reacting to them. Almost forces you to keep sending in samples to average out the "noise", which I suppose is what they want

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

To summarize: After 4 water changes (25-30% each) over 5 days, the tin should have dropped from 18 to about 3.9 (and perhaps lower IF the MetaSorb "worked.") I should have sent water out immediately after that (but waited 5 days because I like to ship water on Mondays, going from NJ to CA. Next time, I will time this better). Since the tin came back even higher (22) I immediately thought of either: RO/DI filter; RO/DI glass storage tank, and/or glass salt mixing tank. The big question is, how likely is it that Sn could come back in just 5 days? I'm thinking, "not likely" but anything is possible. (All water changes were with Tropic Marin Pro).

Plan: Still awaiting ATI results (2 more days?) which might change plans, but if ATI shows elevated Sn that will be "3 strikes" so I can be fairly confident that I have elevated tin.
ATI is also testing RO/DI (directly out of filter). If elevated Sn is found in DT but zero in RO/DI filter, that would make RO/DI tank and/or salt mixing tank very suspicious. (I would then send out samples of each of them).
For now: No water changes; 5 days of Polyfilter, MetaSorb and Seachem Cuprisorb; then 5 days of Brightwell Power Cleanse Heavy Metal; then 5 days carbon; then retest immediately.

I don't know how likely the Sn would increase in just 5 days after all the water changes, but if that happened, I'm wondering about Sn leaching from plastic. (I wrote about this in the Triton forum so I apologize for the duplication here). I have 2 Vortech guards in the tank which are made of an "unusual-looking" plastic (which I have just removed). (You may be able to see what I mean in this photo; click to enlarge):

NemProtect Powerhead Guard for Vortech MP10

With the recent influx of 3D printed products hitting the market, there have been a handful of innovative products. The new NemProtect stands out as a really great answer to the needs of anemone keepers everywhere. Flow is a critical element in reef and anemone tanks, but powerheads pose a...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

Does anyone (@Randy Holmes-Farley) know of a lab where I can send a piece of plastic to be tested for tin? (I may do this if other "steps" fail; I am awaiting a reply from one randomly chosen lab I found online).

RE: Tin on glass. I tried to inspect my glass with a UV/ozone sterilizer that I modified with aluminum foil with a slit. I couldn't tell very well (and couldn't spend much time because I was holding my breathe because of the ozone! Just gave my wife one more thing to make me feel silly about! ). I will order an UV flashlight if the ATI test comes back with elevated Sn.

Testing for tin will not tell you that it can leach out. The tin molecules put into plastic like PVC are highly hydrophobic and not soluble in water. They likely would break down and then potentially be released, but I expect that is a very slow process.

I don't think it won't be fruitful, but the better way to do it is soak the plastic in water that is tested for tin before and after soaking.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I don't think it won't be fruitful, but the better way to do it is soak the plastic in water that is tested for tin before and after soaking.
[/QUOTE]
That does sound like a better idea. I actually though of that after I got a $250 quote today from Applied Technical Services, Inc. to test the plastic for tin. (I just have to wait and make sure my newly mixed saltwater is free of Sn). Thanks, Randy.

 

[Dr. Jim]

UPDATE ON MY TIN PROBLEM:

-The suspicious plastic pump guard mentioned in my last post turned out to NOT be the problem.

-Most of this post was copied and pasted from another thread (where someone asked me a question) so if you've seen it, skip to the next post titled "Aug 13 update"

Warning: This is lengthy, so if you aren't interested in "TIN" you may want to skip it!

AUGUST 6, 2020 POST (from another thread):

In Summary
5/11/20--Triton ICP: Sn = 18 (set pt is 0.1) I then performed 4 water changes over the next 5 days: 25%, 30%, 30%, 30% which should have brought the level to about 4.8.
I then used TLF Metasorb for 5 days (placed in sump mesh sock so had good water flow on/thru it). I then performed another 20% water change, so even if the Metasorb did nothing, the level should have been around 3.9.
On 6/1, I sent water to Triton and ATI. Triton showed 22 and ATI showed 45.84 (set point is 0.47 for ATI) (when I was expecting < 3.9).
Next......After 8 days of a combination of Polyfilters, Seachem Cuprisorb, MetaSorb, carbon and Power Cleanse (3 days)…..and enough water changes to lower the tin from 22 (Triton) to about 8.5 (even if other products didn’t work)….the ICP showed the tin at 18 (Triton) on 6/22. (This doesn't necessarily mean these products didn't work, the leaching may have been occurring faster than it could be removed).

RO/DI, RODI holding tank, and salt mixing tank were all confirmed, more than once, to be free of tin.

----------------------------------

MISC COMMENTS:
1) I seriously doubt that there is metal causing the problem, being that no other metal was elevated on the ICP tests, everything was brand new 7 months ago, and since I "broke down" the system, it was easy to look for metal. Also, the results tend to suggest otherwise.
2) I know a lot of people say "don't worry about tin" and/or "take ICP results with a grain of salt". I agree that one should not jump to conclusions from just one elevated element from a single test. But with all the "positive" values I have gotten, it has to be significant. And, yes, I do believe that my SPS are being affected.
3) I think glass as a source can be ruled out given the results above. (The slight level of Sn in A-5 could be from leftover water I didn't get out when I cleaned the tank, or possibly from Sn that was adsorbed and released by the plastic overflow box. In any case the relative low value of 7.6 compared to the 150-200 values makes me put the "glass idea" on the back-burner for now.)
4) I'm fairly convinced that rock can adsorb AND release tin. This would make sense and may explain A-1 and A-2. (We know rock can do that with phosphates and copper, so why not with tin?)
5) -From a lengthy discussion regarding metal-binding products with Jack Kent (CEO of Continuum and owner of Brightwell) I learned:
-Nobody to his knowledge has studied the ability of any of these products to remove tin, but he felt there is a very good chance that they should. (You will notice that none of these products lists tin as a metal it will remove).
-There is a "pecking order" as to which metal/element is removed first, second, etc but nobody knows what this order is.
-His product, Power Cleanse, is similar, if not the same, as Cuprisorb. (It looks identical to me). It consists of 2 resins that bind metals without affecting pH. I would recommend his product over the Cuprisorb: you get a whole lot more of it and he recommends using a much larger volume than what you get with Cuprisorb. He feels that, if it is going to work, it should "work" in just 24 hours. (Remember that any of these problems will throw off most of the trace elements so it might be prudent to perform huge water changes after finsishing with any of these products).
- He has no idea what is in MetaSorb. (I opened it and found a white powder which can also be a resin (according to Randy Holmes-Farley). Polyfilter is a resin-like material sprayed on the "sponge".

-----------------------------------

Now it was time to disassemble my tank and I started testing "components" individually or in groups, in separate tanks. (ATI was used for all tests to follow since they run 2 samples per kit). These "trials" included:

-GROUP "A" (first set of "trials"; "soaked" for 5 days before sampling):
Aug 7, 2020

A-1. Live Rock Tank. 25 lbs of live rock and all livestock (fish), including 30+ SPS frags were moved to a 29 gal tank for the duration of "trials". Sn = 13.73
A-2. Artificial Rock. 40 lbs soaked in new saltwater; aerated). Sn=30.55
A-3. Hang-on Algae filter. Run on 10 gal tank. Sn=N.n.
A-4. Sump (of Red Sea Reefer 170; also contained GHL probes, magnets and ATO apparatus) after thorough cleaning with RO/DI and filled with new saltwater. Sn= N.n.
A-5. Main tank (after similar cleaning as sump) Sn=7.61
A-6. Misc Tank "A": In a plastic storage container, I ran the protein skimmer and soaked the main pump, Echotech pumps, pvc pipes and misc pvc items, magnets, etc. Sn=201.3
A-7. Kalk water (from reactor) and ATO water run thru GHL doser (50:50 mix): Sn=125.1
A-8 New Saltwater (80% TM + 20% IO); Sn=25.53

The A-8 value is very disturbing because this is the water that was used in all the tests above (except A-7) so how can Sn in A-3 and A-4 be "undetectable"? I'm forced to temporarily ignore this value and look at the extremely elevated values in A-6 and A-7.

Next batch of tests, GROUP "B" (to further explore A-6 and A-7):
B-1-New salt mix (used in these Group B trials; TM only)...... Sn=N.n
B-2 Main pump (I took the pump from A-6 above so I could see if I can use it when I start up main system again):..... Sn=N.n
B-3 Misc Tank "B"- I took only the skimmer (minus its pump) and Red Sea pipes/tube from Group A and tested them alone, this time in the 10 gal glass tank from A-3 (shown to be N.n.). I was concerned that the high Sn in A-6 may have come from the plastic tub, (but apparently this was not the case)...... Sn=199.0
B-4 Kalk water (this time I eliminated the ATO water and all tubing from A-7 and just sampled water directly out of the Kalk reactor...... Sn=150.3