Any one doing Tropic Marin Balling system?

[LadyTang2]

Thanks, and how about the magnesium, that's also in part C right?
- if it is in there, is that also just keeping the nacl balanced and not supplementing so I still need to add more mag?

Also I know brs uses soda ash in their method, and they talked about doubling other doses, if you use soda ash do you double both Ca and part C and why?

 

[LadyTang2]

Also I saw some video where a guy said soda ash will build up in your pipes or glue your sand together, is this true?

 

[tautog83]

I just got my icp test back and some of my trace elements , were on the low side but nothing really bad . I was going to try adding the a and k to my 2 part solutions, would that be ok without using the c solution right off the bat . ? Also do you feel mag at 1340 is ok for an sps tank or should I bump it a little . Thanks!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I just got my icp test back and some of my trace elements , were on the low side but nothing really bad . I was going to try adding the a and k to my 2 part solutions, would that be ok without using the c solution right off the bat . ? Also do you feel mag at 1340 is ok for an sps tank or should I bump it a little . Thanks!

The magnesium is higher than 35 ppt seawater (1280 ppm) and is fine.

It is certainly fine to dose those additives if you think you need them. Whether they can be mixed into a two part is harder for me to answer without knowing what is in them.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also I saw some video where a guy said soda ash will build up in your pipes or glue your sand together, is this true?

A little bit of truth clogged with confusion. lol

The higher the tank pH, the more likely is precipitation of calcium carbonate. New sand is especially prone to this.

Sodium carbonate will help raise pH. Not as much as some additives (hydroxide-containing two parts or limewater/kalkwasser) but much more than sodium bicarbonate recipes.

Many/most folks have low pH issues, and the pH raising is, IMO, usually a plus.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks, and how about the magnesium, that's also in part C right?
- if it is in there, is that also just keeping the nacl balanced and not supplementing so I still need to add more mag?

Also I know brs uses soda ash in their method, and they talked about doubling other doses, if you use soda ash do you double both Ca and part C and why?

I do not know what you mean by doubling doses. It might be useful for you to read my DIY recipe article which BRS uses (they sell "already baked" baking soda as soda ash):

An Improved Do-it-Yourself Two-Part Calcium and Alkalinity Supplement System by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

I'd only add more magnesium than part C if it seems to be declining below where you want it.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Thanks, and how about the magnesium, that's also in part C right?
- if it is in there, is that also just keeping the nacl balanced and not supplementing so I still need to add more mag?

Also I know brs uses soda ash in their method, and they talked about doubling other doses, if you use soda ash do you double both Ca and part C and why?

Hi LadyTang,
I will answer some of your PM questions here and answer some privately.

It might help to back up and look at some basics. What we want to dose are:
1. Ca (CaCl)
2. Alk (carbonate, bicarbonate, or a combination of both; some companies include borates but we will ignore that for this discussion)
3. Mg (mixture of Mg salts)
4. Trace Elements

Then, we have the optional T.M. Balling Part C. This part is used in conjunction, or proportionately with 1. Ca and 2. Alk. Ideally, one would dose equal parts of all 3 but as I stated earlier, IME, rarely does that work where Ca and Alk turn out to be dosed equally (which, again, is my reason for not using Ca and Alk with trace elements mixed in). You can use any 2, 3, or 4-Part on the market, with or without trace elements mixed in, along with the Balling Part C. (And I suggest dosing the Part C equal to whichever of the Ca or Alk dose is the lowest).

Think of the Mg in Balling Part C as the trace elements. They are all there at levels to balance ONLY the Part C. They are not "supplements" and you still need to be prepared to add Mg and trace elements separately. (Again, some add the trace elements to the Ca and Alk components BUT then you need to dose the two parts equally which I don't like to have to rely on).

I'm not sure what you are referring to with what BRS said. I know they said:
1. If you use the Part C Balling with their 2-Part system, be sure to NOT follow the Part C mixing instructions that come with the T.M. Balling system. (Instead, follow their mixing instructions).
2. Equal volumes of the BRS soda ash (carbonate) and bicarbonate do not give equal dKH. (e.g. 1 ml of Carbonate yields much higher dKH than 1 ml of Bicarbonate)
I personally use a 1:1 mix (by volume) of BRS's stock carb and bicarb solutions. (If my calculations are correct, 9.5 ml of that mix would raise the dKH in 100 gal by 0.1dKH)

When switching between bicarbonate to carbonate, or from one company's Alk component to another company's, you need to know how much dKH each component yields so you can calculate how much to use of your new solution. (The BRS calculator will help with that if you are using the BRS solutions. Other companies generally tell you how much dKH their product yields).

Trace Elements: Again, I like to dose them separately because different systems may require different amounts. I believe T.M. even says not to use their trace elements for the first year. When you mix them in the Ca and Alk components, it becomes difficult to adjust the amounts. ICP tests can be used as a crude guide as to how much to give. I mentioned that I use 1/4 of the recommended dosage of T.M. Elements A & K for my SPS Q-tank heavily stocked with SPS frags only.

Hopes this helps.
Jim

 

[LadyTang2]

I think what I saw on the brs video about "doubling" was to do part C and how you match the part C dose to the volume of the additive you dosed less of but if you switched from bicarb to soda ash then you don't or something. Anyway I am wondering...

How much cacl, na bicarb, na carb, mag sulf or cl (grams) can I dissolve in a certain vol or RODI, is there a table with this info and should I always dissolve to the max? Then if I want to match my Ca to Alk how do I figure out how much of each to use. The BRS calculator just asks what your ca is now and what you want it to be, not this much vol of cacl is 1:1 with this much soda ash or na bicarb.

 

[LadyTang2]

Then I was even more confused when the BRS calculator and saw this....
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using soda ash powder add 7.1 grams
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using BRS liquid soda ash add 71.4mL
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using na bicarb powder use 11.3 grams
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using BRS liquid bicarb use 142.8mL

so comparing liquids ratio is 71.4 to 142.8 mL (double)
but when comparing powders it's 7.1 to 11.3 grams (not double/different ratio)

;Facepalm

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Then I was even more confused when the BRS calculator and saw this....
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using soda ash powder add 7.1 grams
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using BRS liquid soda ash add 71.4mL
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using na bicarb powder use 11.3 grams
To raise the alk by 1 dkh in 100 gal using BRS liquid bicarb use 142.8mL

so comparing liquids ratio is 71.4 to 142.8 mL (double)
but when comparing powders it's 7.1 to 11.3 grams (not double/different ratio)

;Facepalm

You may be overthinking this.

The powders are certainly different, but not different in the ratio the solutions are since they do not contain the same amount of solids added. There is no reason to know any of this, except the potency of the solution you are actually using.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think what I saw on the brs video about "doubling" was to do part C and how you match the part C dose to the volume of the additive you dosed less of but if you switched from bicarb to soda ash then you don't or something. Anyway I am wondering...

How much cacl, na bicarb, na carb, mag sulf or cl (grams) can I dissolve in a certain vol or RODI, is there a table with this info and should I always dissolve to the max? Then if I want to match my Ca to Alk how do I figure out how much of each to use. The BRS calculator just asks what your ca is now and what you want it to be, not this much vol of cacl is 1:1 with this much soda ash or na bicarb.

Don't overly rely on BRS.

First decide whether you want to use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) or baked sodium bicarbonate (sodium carbonate). The reasons to elect one over the other are detailed in my article above. That decisions determines the concentrations to sue since the carbonate can be mode stronger than the bicarbonate due to solubility.

 

[Lou Ekus]

Wow, this is so hard to decipher, in such detail, on the forum. I wish we were all sitting at a table and discussing this. It would be so much easier. I will try to clear up a couple of things here. If any of you would like to chat personally about this, please give me a call in the office. That would be so much easier!

1) I agree with @Randy Holmes-Farley, that the concentrations of NaCl in sea water are so high, it is not a good indication of an ionic imbalance. The NaCl concentration can easily be elevated enough, without being able to measure that increase effectively, that would significantly lower the trace element concentrations (also almost impossible to measure accurately with current ICP methodology).
2) @Dr. Jim Tropic Marin Balling Part C DOES contain all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water. It also contains things like magnesium and potassium that we do not class as "trace". In fact it contains everything in complete natural sea water, with the exceptions of Ca, carbonates, and most importantly NaCl.
3) @LadyTang2 While it is true that the TM Balling Part C contains all the things I have mentioned above, you are correct when you say that it "adds those components, but DOES NOT supplement those things". In other words, you are technically "adding" them to your tank. But you are not adding enough, or in the correct concentrations, to "supplement" for used or consumed trace elements or Mg.
4) You are all correct that the TM Balling is not meant to be used as a trace element "supplement". One correction on a statement by @Dr. Jim , the trace trace elements and other components of The TM Balling Part C are NOT there to "balance what is in the Part C." They are there to balance the excess NaCl created and left over by the addition of the Parts A & B.
5) In the theory of the perfect Balling Method, The molar concentrations of the solutions are calculated to meet the relative demands of those compounds by the process of calcification of the coral polyps. So in theory, your tank would use equal volumes of all three. In practice, many coral tank systems use more alkalinity, per unit of Ca, than the corals use in this process. This is because there are very few things besides calcification that can take Ca out of the water column. However, there are quite a few things, other than calcification, that can take alkalinity out of the water column. So the result is that many reef aquarium systems use more alkalinity in relation to the Ca than the corals are using. Since the solutions are designed to the coral ratios, some systems will need more or less of the perfect one to one ration of Parts A & B. The variation of the quantities of Part A and Part B are usually quite small. But it is one of the advantages of the 2 part or 3 Part Balling Methods, that you can adjust for that difference.
6) Since the variation, of the necessary volumes of Part A & B are usually quite small, I like the option of adding the Trace elements into the solutions. This makes sense to me for two reasons. First, the incorporation of the trace elements, and consequently the demand for supplementing them, goes up with an increase in calcification of the corals. So if they are added to the A & B solutions, you are automatically getting more, if you need more. Secondly, the concentrations of these traces are so small, and the differences of demand for the Part A and PAart B are usually relatively small as well, that this very rarely, if ever, causes any kind of trace element imbalance. The result is then supplementing Ca, alkalinity AND trace elements, in 3 solutions instead of 5.
7) There is some debate about the amount of sodium related to alkalinity in the sodium bicarbonate solution in comparison to the sodium carbonate (soda ash) solution. This is where the differences in the quantities of the corresponding recommended amount of the Part C comes in.

Lastly, as I have said above, this is really difficult for me to do in forum format. If I have answered a few of the questions here, great! If there is more detail desired, I'd be happy to speak personally with any of you.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

7) There is some debate about the amount of sodium related to alkalinity in the sodium bicarbonate solution in comparison to the sodium carbonate (soda ash) solution.

I'm confused. Are you claiming that the sodium does not exactly equal the alkalinity in sodium bicarbonate and also in sodium carbonate? Unless one is talking about potentially impure materials that contain other salts (like sodium chloride or potassium carbonate), I cannot see how there is any debate on that.

 

[Lou Ekus]

I'm confused. Are you claiming that the sodium does not exactly equal the alkalinity in sodium bicarbonate and also in sodium carbonate? Unless one is talking about potentially impure materials that contain other salts (like sodium chloride or potassium carbonate), I cannot see how there is any debate on that.

I'm actually not sure about this at all. I'm not "claiming" anything! I only mentioned it because the concentrations are so different in a carbonate and bicarbonate solution. And when our chemists did the math in Germany for the addition of the matching amount of Part C, there was a difference. As you know, I am not a chemist, so I will let @Hans-Werner chime in on this, so I don't make any assumptions. I am now over my non-chemist head!

 

[Dr. Jim]

2) @Dr. Jim Tropic Marin Balling Part C DOES contain all 70 trace elements found in natural sea water. It also contains things like magnesium and potassium that we do not class as "trace". In fact it contains everything in complete natural sea water, with the exceptions of Ca, carbonates, and most importantly NaCl.

Yes, Lou, this is what I've been trying to say all along (although I didn't mention the number "70"). There was one post where I wrote "....there are no trace elements" but I was referring to Parts A and B only. (Perhaps I should have worded it better).

But thanks for clearing up all the misconceptions on this thread!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm actually not sure about this at all. I'm not "claiming" anything! I only mentioned it because the concentrations are so different in a carbonate and bicarbonate solution. And when our chemists did the math in Germany for the addition of the matching amount of Part C, there was a difference. As you know, I am not a chemist, so I will let @Hans-Werner chime in on this, so I don't make any assumptions. I am now over my non-chemist head!

OK, yes, the concentrations are often different due to solubility limits on sodium bicarbonate.